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Subject: Move Query rss

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Andrew Wallwork
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Still on the first scenario (I'm a slow player ) Germans are now free to move based on the solo cards. In the first picture you can see the German units that the action applies to (in hex D7).In the second I have card 23. As far as I can make out the only AEO order that applies is AEO closest to a Target - Dynamic Move towards. So a couple of questions:

1) What is considered a target by the AEO? Is it an enemy unit and/or an objective hex. In which case is it correct to say that the closest target is Sgt Hill down in F4. As we are in night rules and he hasn't been spotted, how do the German units even know that is a target? The only one that has been spotted is in L5 so is that considered the closest target?

2) A Dynamic move, according to the Solo Movement Stances table, would mean I do Low Crawl. Given it is nighttime and I am quite a few hexes away that would seem an odd movement stance to take. Have I read that correctly?

3) Because I am doing a Dynamic Move does that mean I ignore the Move Action Defensive flowchart?



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Norman Smith
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Hi Andrew, I think you could play this a couple of ways and not be wrong and in solitaire play, who is going to say you are wrong anyway

this is my take for what it is worth.

Firstly, the card drawn needs testing for a Random Event.

I agree that 'AEO CLOSEST to a target Dynamic Moves towards' in the secondary order section is the correct order to apply.

The two KEY cards that come with the card pack describe target as either a victory condition or a PU (enemy player unit).

There is not a spotting marker on the map, but you say that the 1.4.4. in cover at L5 has been spotted and since nearby German units have fired, I will assume that is correct.

The main rules say that while ever a unit is spotted, it is spotted to all, even if it is out of their line of sight.

Looking at the overall situation at the relevant points. It is night and Sgt. Hill (even though he is closer) is not spotted, while the 1.4.4 in L5 is. It is also true that the victory location is also over in that direction, so it seems right that the AEO action should relate to L5.

For Dynamic movement of infantry (i.e. not ordinary movement), I use the stance card in place of the movement flow chart and for these German units the only option available is low crawl. (it says towards PU, but I would also assume towards a victory condition would also work!).

It requires a movement towards a hex with a +1 terrain Modifier. If it low crawls over the wall into the field, it meets all requirements as it moves nearer a known PU and could still claim cover (from the far wall). Although not a requirement, it also gives us a nice warm feeling to know that we are taking some cover from the potential exploits of Sgt. Hill

I think your gut instinct is that under the circumstances, this unit could make bigger strides towards the building, but clearly the AI feels it is dark and that this unit should cautiously feel its way forward, which seems fair enough.

If you were to judgement call against that, then moving down the card, there will be nothing there that can be used, so the AEO would pass instead. I think you could argue (Judgement Call) that that it may be better for the AEO to pass, but if I were doing this, I would feel that the AI has made an OK call in the circumstances that exist at this moment in time.

Anyway, this is only my take and I am pretty sure that others may and could make a different call.
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Sean Druelinger
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Hello

I am assuming Germans are on Defense in this action. The Target in this case would be a PU and the closest one, spotted or not. So how would the Germans know that the American is there? Realistically they wouldn't but if you were playing another player he or she would know and perhaps may execute a move towards the US forces.

Low Crawl vs not Low Crawl...Or Pass.....Usually on Defense the AEO would be cautious thus a Dynamic Move / Low Crawl. Since this is night then a "judgement call" would be needed if the move is a Low Crawl or a regular move.

The defensive AI is centered around protecting the objective and getting into a better firing position in which to defend. Night rules skew this a bit as you are not as visible if you perform an action. So some judgement may be needed.

But this gives us a chance to improve the Solo by thinking about night rules a bit.



Thank you
Sean Druelinger
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Norman Smith
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Sean, I am not sure to what extent the night rules impact on the solo module, but I am feeling that it is not in terms of raw visibility, night is just like having large buildings or other blocking terrain between yourself and an enemy unless within 2 hexes (or other exception, such as starshell or enemy firing) and so the Solo modules normal LOS references work in the night environment.

Having stood in absolute pitch darkness, one thing for sure is that normal daylight movement rates should be capped and the allowed vision range of 100 yards is generous (but of course makes the game work at an interesting level).

The rulebook could do with including your thoughts that the AI should be able to do what the Player can do i.e. be free to respond by manoeuvre to things they cannot see. It makes sense to mirror those 'benefits' that the player happily take for themselves.

The whole solo game is such a dynamic thing of itself, that perhaps what we really need is a living downloadable document that gets walkthrough chapters added to it, that would be updated with such things as the example you give, so in effect you would have a night time walkthrough chapter - it is probably the easiest and most intuitive way to get principles across without overloading the rulebook. I actually enjoyed reading the walkthrough, it is interesting and doesn't feel like you are learning rules, though I realise it is a lot of work and not an easy ask.
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Sean Druelinger
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Hi Norman

I do not recall these particular (scenario) night rules and myself being in some not nice places in the dark (military days) have experienced different kinds of darkness. The night rules cover generic darkness but can be modified by the scenario. I love the idea of a living rules approach and we currently do that with the core game manuals. Maybe just what we need is to add the Solo rules to the resource list.

Thank you
Sean Druelinger
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Andrew Wallwork
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Thanks for the input Norman. It seems like I had the right idea of what to do. I am going to try and let the AEO make as many decisions as it can so I will follow its instructions here. I can see how it makes sense. It's dark and the Germans know the Americans are out there so don't want to go blundering around making a lot of noise. Of course next card they get could have them do just that

I forgot to place the spotted marker on L5 and I think I should also put one on the hex with the Fired marker. I keep forgetting it is the hex that is spotted, rather than the units. Is it correct that if they move from that hex then they need to be spotted again (unless they move into clear ground). Hopefully the AEO will have them move into the building.

I wasn't sure whether random events applied when you are playing the scenarios. What happens if the event seems completely unrelated to the scenario?



normsmith wrote:
Hi Andrew, I think you could play this a couple of ways and not be wrong and in solitaire play, who is going to say you are wrong anyway

this is my take for what it is worth.

Firstly, the card drawn needs testing for a Random Event.

I agree that 'AEO CLOSEST to a target Dynamic Moves towards' in the secondary order section is the correct order to apply.

The two KEY cards that come with the card pack describe target as either a victory condition or a PU (enemy player unit).

There is not a spotting marker on the map, but you say that the 1.4.4. in cover at L5 has been spotted and since nearby German units have fired, I will assume that is correct.

The main rules say that while ever a unit is spotted, it is spotted to all, even if it is out of their line of sight.

Looking at the overall situation at the relevant points. It is night and Sgt. Hill (even though he is closer) is not spotted, while the 1.4.4 in L5 is. It is also true that the victory location is also over in that direction, so it seems right that the AEO action should relate to L5.

For Dynamic movement of infantry (i.e. not ordinary movement), I use the stance card in place of the movement flow chart and for these German units the only option available is low crawl. (it says towards PU, but I would also assume towards a victory condition would also work!).

It requires a movement towards a hex with a +1 terrain Modifier. If it low crawls over the wall into the field, it meets all requirements as it moves nearer a known PU and could still claim cover (from the far wall). Although not a requirement, it also gives us a nice warm feeling to know that we are taking some cover from the potential exploits of Sgt. Hill

I think your gut instinct is that under the circumstances, this unit could make bigger strides towards the building, but clearly the AI feels it is dark and that this unit should cautiously feel its way forward, which seems fair enough.

If you were to judgement call against that, then moving down the card, there will be nothing there that can be used, so the AEO would pass instead. I think you could argue (Judgement Call) that that it may be better for the AEO to pass, but if I were doing this, I would feel that the AI has made an OK call in the circumstances that exist at this moment in time.

Anyway, this is only my take and I am pretty sure that others may and could make a different call.
 
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Andrew Wallwork
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This is where I get confused. I'm struggling with the fact that the Germans don't know the Americans are there yet they still would move towards them as they are the closest PU. As it happens doing a low crawl means they will only move into hex E7 so it is the direction of both the target and the PU

sdruelinger wrote:
Hello

I am assuming Germans are on Defense in this action. The Target in this case would be a PU and the closest one, spotted or not. So how would the Germans know that the American is there? Realistically they wouldn't but if you were playing another player he or she would know and perhaps may execute a move towards the US forces.

Low Crawl vs not Low Crawl...Or Pass.....Usually on Defense the AEO would be cautious thus a Dynamic Move / Low Crawl. Since this is night then a "judgement call" would be needed if the move is a Low Crawl or a regular move.

The defensive AI is centered around protecting the objective and getting into a better firing position in which to defend. Night rules skew this a bit as you are not as visible if you perform an action. So some judgement may be needed.

But this gives us a chance to improve the Solo by thinking about night rules a bit.



Thank you
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing
 
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Andrew Wallwork
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OK so in the next move I had Sgt Hill move into K1 and then the Americans got the initiative so he opened fire on the Germans in L7 hitting a couple of them. So next card drawn has the Priority 2 order of Move Towards. Using the Move Action Defensive flowchart I think the diamond saying "AEO in hex with +TM" applies as I can say no to that and therefore that stack would all move into the house. Is that how it works?
 
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Norman Smith
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tasmanuk wrote:
What happens if the event seems completely unrelated to the scenario?
[/q]

The Event rule is optional anyway, plus even in the body of the rules they talk about limiting it to perhaps 3 occasions if players want to, so I would say just simply ignore an unrelated Event and resume play, since there seems to a design sense regarding Events that less is more.

One could of course re-roll, it seems that such thing are entirely up to the player.
 
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Norman Smith
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tasmanuk wrote:
OK so in the next move I had Sgt Hill move into K1 and then the Americans got the initiative so he opened fire on the Germans in L7 hitting a couple of them. So next card drawn has the Priority 2 order of Move Towards. Using the Move Action Defensive flowchart I think the diamond saying "AEO in hex with +TM" applies as I can say no to that and therefore that stack would all move into the house. Is that how it works?



Hi Andrew, I assume that after Hill moves (marked moved), the turn ends, then the Americans get initiative at the start of the next turn and Hill is then free to act again? with all markers having been removed.

As I see it, at the start of the new turn the L7 Germans (in the open) are auto spotted by the 1-4-4 who is within two hexes (night spotting distance), but since the Germans in L7 have now lost their Fire marker and under the night rules, Hill cannot see them (even though they are spotted by others for being in the open) as he is 3 hexes away and the enemy do not have a fire marker (unless they fire again).

So when the AEO card is drawn and gets a Priority 2 order of Move Towards (which is short hand as per the KEY card to move towards either the unit that is two hexes away or the associated victory hex), accordingly it's movement is in relation to the 1.4.4. which if memory serves me right is sitting next to a victory condition hex (where the device has to be set up), so I think on the Move Action Defensive card, from the centre box you select the diamond box that says 'PU closer to Victory Condition or Map Edge' well the 1.4.4 (the priority 2 unit)is closer to the victory condition, so the Germans in L7 take the YES route, which requires the next order down on the card to be considered and depending on what that is, it may be something that instead pertains to the other German stack. That's my take anyway if I have properly understood the situation, but I have been wrong before
 
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Andrew Wallwork
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I may have played this wrong then. I assumed that because the Germans in L7 were spotted the previous turn, they remain spotted in subsequent turns until they move away. But what you are saying is that isn't the case and Hill couldn't have shot at them. So I will remove the damage from them and get Hill to do something else, which will probably be him moving forward into L1 and then they will be spotted.

I did look at the diamond that said PU closer to Victory Condition and did wonder if I should be using that one. So you have confirmed that you also think it is the valid move to do, even though the house is nice and safe and they can shoot at anyone getting close to the victory hex.


normsmith wrote:
tasmanuk wrote:
OK so in the next move I had Sgt Hill move into K1 and then the Americans got the initiative so he opened fire on the Germans in L7 hitting a couple of them. So next card drawn has the Priority 2 order of Move Towards. Using the Move Action Defensive flowchart I think the diamond saying "AEO in hex with +TM" applies as I can say no to that and therefore that stack would all move into the house. Is that how it works?



Hi Andrew, I assume that after Hill moves (marked moved), the turn ends, then the Americans get initiative at the start of the next turn and Hill is then free to act again? with all markers having been removed.

As I see it, at the start of the new turn the L7 Germans (in the open) are auto spotted by the 1-4-4 who is within two hexes (night spotting distance), but since the Germans in L7 have now lost their Fire marker and under the night rules, Hill cannot see them (even though they are spotted by others for being in the open) as he is 3 hexes away and the enemy do not have a fire marker (unless they fire again).

So when the AEO card is drawn and gets a Priority 2 order of Move Towards (which is short hand as per the KEY card to move towards either the unit that is two hexes away or the associated victory hex), accordingly it's movement is in relation to the 1.4.4. which if memory serves me right is sitting next to a victory condition hex (where the device has to be set up), so I think on the Move Action Defensive card, from the centre box you select the diamond box that says 'PU closer to Victory Condition or Map Edge' well the 1.4.4 (the priority 2 unit)is closer to the victory condition, so the Germans in L7 take the YES route, which requires the next order down on the card to be considered and depending on what that is, it may be something that instead pertains to the other German stack. That's my take anyway if I have properly understood the situation, but I have been wrong before
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Norman Smith
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Yes the stone building looks very inviting, shame the German unit doesn't feel the same way at the moment :-)

The spotted markers come off in the Admin Phase, as do all the other markers that would cause spotting. Of course at the start of the next turn, it is the case that those units that are auto spotted (in the open or adjacent to an enemy) will be spotted afresh from the outset.

If Hill is moving K1 to L1 in order to spot the Germans and be in range to fire, he could Assault Move into L1, auto spot the Germans and then Assault Fire at them with associated penalty.
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Andrew Wallwork
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Sorry for more questions on this. Just trying to get my head around the spotting rules.

Are the Germans in L7 not auto spotted as they are in the open and are in LOS of the American unit in L5? If that is the case then don't they become spotted for all American units (as per rule 10.1)? If that is correct then Sgt Hill should be able to fire at L7 shouldn't he?
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Norman Smith
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Hi Andrew, your understanding of spotting (that something spotted is universally spotted by all) is essentially correct ....... Except in night scenarios, the basic principle of spotting is modified by paragraph 1 of the Night Rules. So Sgt. Hill is going to have to work a bit harder for his moment of glory
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Andrew Wallwork
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Still going on this one (Xmas and new games and a new Xbox One X got in the way )

Got another Move Towards on the number 2 priority order so using the charts we still have a PU closer to victory conditions (the AEO's previous counter attack failed to shift him) so we move onto the next order. No counteractions this time so the next secondary order I can do is another Move towards. Do I just go around in a loop here and apply the same logic as before ie PU closer to victory so move onto next order, or can I actually move into cover now. If not, no further orders apply so I guess the AEO passes. Which seems odd when he can move into cover or shoot at the PU in the victory location.
 
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Norman Smith
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Hi Andrew - again, this is just my take as the judgement thing allows us to take things in an unscripted direction, so others may see different opportunities.

Accepting that the following is true.

1 - the 'Move toward' instruction is shorthand for move towards either an enemy unit or a victory location.

2 - The victory location is described as L5 or any adjacent hex that is NOT a building.

3 - To strictly observe the Move towards order, hexes L5 (containing victory location and an enemy unit) and M5 (containing a victory location) are the only two hexes that you can move towards.

4 - it would be a dangerous gamble to move towards L5, either 1 hex with low crawl or move with a view to melee.

In strict observance of the card, it would appear that your only options are to either move towards L5 / M5 directly, reducing distance in hexes each time you move or do nothing which then becomes a PASS.

However, the German unit staying where it is also dangerous and as you say, not trying to advance under the cover of the building seems counter-intuitive and if you had player control of the piece that would be your most likely action. So it seems that in the instance you could use 'judgement' to rescue the situation, still use the spirit of the card instruction to move forward, but do it via the building - perhaps making best efforts to reduce the distance in hexes between the German unit and the U.S. unit, but at least getting the cover value for doing that.

Your call really and I suppose it goes back to an earlier comment that I made on my own blog, that if five people faced the same situation under the solo system, they may come to five different interpretations of what should be done.
 
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Sean Druelinger
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Hello

I think there is a posture table included and explains how an AEO would move. With that said there is no reason why the AEO could not use the building to move closer to L5. The posture table (Going by memory here) states that a unit will try to use cover when making a move. So the unit can move towards L5 by hopping into the building and then moving adjacent to L5.

Let me know if I am not following what is going on.

Thank you
Sean Druelinger
 
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Andrew Wallwork
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The table does explain how the AEO will move Sean. The problem is that 2 of the decision diamonds apply so which one do you choose? In my case my AEO is not in a hex with a +TM, in which case it should move into the building, but there is also a PU closer to the victory condition, in which case you move onto the next order. I have been taking that decision path, however the next order is another move towards so if I take the same decision path again, I will get to the point where the AEO passes, which seems wrong.

Norm comes to the same conclusion in his post, but, like me, thinks it is counter intuitive to pass so I should just choose the other decision diamond and move into the building.

I guess that was a long way of asking, which decision path do you take when both of them apply?
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