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Subject: 6/8 German Actions & Para 863 rss

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Chris Eastman
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Hi Folks. Love this forum for all the help I've both seen and commented on over the years. Here is one for the board to chime in on. So all in one breath in this section it states 1) "In some cases, the instruction to make the free stance change is explicitly stated; in other cases it is implied." Then goes on to.... 2) "[Usually] the paragraphs are to be taken literally." Ok if I buy this at face value, I have to infer stance change (1) as need but then all being equal I take the paragraph (2) literally.
So.... First bullet of 863 reads "If no active target in sight, move as quickly as possible. Fall prone if an active target in sight AND free stance change available." So for this paragraph I have implicitly changed the German from crouch to stand (in consideration of the "move as quickly statement") then moved 1 hex as required spending 1x MP leaving 3 remaining. Ooops! I now have a US soldier in my LOS. So I don't have a free stance change but I have 3 MP's left. That said, the paragraph reads w/ the Boolean AND so in my estimation, the German is stuck standing? as that statement seems pretty explicit. Look forward to thoughts from any who care to toss them out.
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Taking the first bullet literally, "If no active target in sight, move as quickly as possible...." it did not say "as quickly as possible, changing stance to do so" If he was in crouch, I would move him in crouch and still have an available free stance change.

Not saying I'm right, but that's how I would do it.

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Chris Eastman
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Thx for response. If I read it right you are not agreeing w/ point (1) and thus going w/ (2) everything HAS to be explicit. See what others chime in with.
 
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cmesml wrote:
Thx for response. If I read it right you are not agreeing w/ point (1) and thus going w/ (2) everything HAS to be explicit. See what others chime in with.


I just play with what feels most appropriate to me for the given situation. In this particular instance I would play it as stated above.

 
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Warren Smith
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I take the "move as quickly as possible" literally. Crawling is NOT moving "as quickly as possible". So, I would use the free stance change first and then move and if he ends up standing, well, that's too bad. :) Don't know if I'm right, but that's how I've always played it.

That said, I would not stop moving with 3MF left over. It doesn't say "stop moving if enemy in sight". He's to move as fast as possible until the movement instructions say to do otherwise. Once he has completed moving as far and fast as he can, *THEN* he falls prone if an enemy is in LOS.
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Chris Eastman
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wsmithjr wrote:
I take the "move as quickly as possible" literally. Crawling is NOT moving "as quickly as possible". So, I would use the free stance change first and then move and if he ends up standing, well, that's too bad. Don't know if I'm right, but that's how I've always played it.

That said, I would not stop moving with 3MF left over. It doesn't say "stop moving if enemy in sight". He's to move as fast as possible until the movement instructions say to do otherwise. Once he has completed moving as far and fast as he can, *THEN* he falls prone if an enemy is in LOS.



Another Appreciative response. I concur on the quick move part, but rest I will counter w/..... and again still info w/ in 6/8. "Some paragraphs state that a German soldier shall move and ""....if active enemy in site, lie prone"". If not specifically told to lie prone ""at the end of movement"", he lies prone at end of movement or in the hex in which he gets LOS to a US soldier, whichever comes first." This is a little bit convoluted but I take this as.... As soon as he has LOS on an enemy he goes prone. If he makes it to the end of his movement (prior to any LOS) he is to go prone (implicitly assuming he has free stance change). Thus again, I'm in the quandary of he's not ended his movement, he has LOS on an enemy (should go prone) but the para states AND free stance change which he does not have. I'm still at the take the paragraph literal state myself.
 
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Warren Smith
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cmesml wrote:
If not specifically told to lie prone ""at the end of movement"", he lies prone at end of movement or in the hex in which he gets LOS to a US soldier, whichever comes first."

Hmm. I obviously don't remember this and don't have rulebook handy. Assuming that is the case, then given the soldier has MF remaining, I would use the MF to go prone. That said, no where does it specifically say that but it seems to be within the intent of the action, if not the letter of it.

 
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Chris Eastman
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wsmithjr wrote:
cmesml wrote:
If not specifically told to lie prone ""at the end of movement"", he lies prone at end of movement or in the hex in which he gets LOS to a US soldier, whichever comes first."

Hmm. I obviously don't remember this and don't have rulebook handy. Assuming that is the case, then given the soldier has MF remaining, I would use the MF to go prone. That said, no where does it specifically say that but it seems to be within the intent of the action, if not the letter of it.



When you have your rule book think you will find that is the case as far as the verbiage. In all actuality, I'm in agreement w/ you as I believe that is/was the intent of the designers when you read most of the GE actions (drop on your dead ass to minimize fire against you). But again, call it a flaw/errata or other.... I'm tempted to take the designers at heart when they say read para's literally. I"m a science/math/IT major so Boolean Algebra is pretty straight forward. In the written mathematically language provided it only adds up to the GE standing.

See if others chime in but in the end I go w/ "Lucky Henry's" note. Go w/ what makes sense to the end player. Since it's solitaire that's the only person you need to agree with.
 
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Patrick Dillon
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"If no active target in sight, move as quickly as possible. Fall prone if an active target in sight AND free stance change available."

In this case, I would take it as literally stated. For an uninjured soldier, running is the fastest movement, and he may need to use his free stance change to stand up. He would then not have a free stance change available to fall prone, and that is an explicitly stated necessary condition of the falling prone action. The soldier could only fall prone if he started in a standing stance.

Thematically, I take this as a "flight" instinct, to get the hell out of there! You don't often think cautiously in such circumstances.
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joshua danley
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No paragraph instructs a soldier to stand or stance change before moving.

So I always stance change and run. I also logically always count the first stance change as the free one.

Logically the soldier runs to reach cover nnd only drops if he is left without MP in the open.

This will of course not happen on this turn unless the soldier started standing.

Thematically that gives the americNs...who lack opportunity fire a sort of opportunity fire at Germans crossing large open areas.
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Chris Eastman
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solitear wrote:

Thematically that gives the americNs...who lack opportunity fire a sort of opportunity fire at Germans crossing large open areas.


Have to say I like the thought process/statement. I agree w/ the direction. Can't think of how many times I've laid down fire by multiple guys on one GE target and start another one creeping up for closer shot/grenade/assault opportunity just to have the GE either 1) make it thru via bad rolls then pop up and crack off a round at closest target and tag my guy or 2) after my fire new round starts and again luck of the die the GE gets initiative and 2 turns. That eats me when that guy should be nose in the dirt. Seems the element of suppression is missed in this game but maybe this is the makeup for that.
 
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Pelle Nilsson
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cmesml wrote:
solitear wrote:

Thematically that gives the americNs...who lack opportunity fire a sort of opportunity fire at Germans crossing large open areas.


Have to say I like the thought process/statement. I agree w/ the direction. Can't think of how many times I've laid down fire by multiple guys on one GE target and start another one creeping up for closer shot/grenade/assault opportunity just to have the GE either 1) make it thru via bad rolls then pop up and crack off a round at closest target and tag my guy or 2) after my fire new round starts and again luck of the die the GE gets initiative and 2 turns. That eats me when that guy should be nose in the dirt. Seems the element of suppression is missed in this game but maybe this is the makeup for that.


Shell Shock! (two-player Ambush) includes mechanics for overwatch fire. I do not remember the details, but I think a soldier can take an action to be in position to try to fire at enemy soldiers moving in their LOS.

In a way Ambush! has that already because Germans can activate and get the first shot on you when moving.
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