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Subject: Emissary & Cthulhu's Spellbook Reqs rss

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Bob Horton
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Hey, a quick rules question about the interaction between Crawling Chaos' "Emissary of the Outer Gods" spellbook, and Great Cthulhu's spellbook requirements (apologies if this has been asked before/is clarified in the Omega rulebook - we couldn't find it in either)

Basically, the situation arose in our game last night that CC was fighting GC and Nyarly was in the battle, Cthulhu was also in the battle but had been Polyp'd. Cthulhu had already Devoured one CC unit, so only needed 1 kill to get "2 Kills/Devours" spellbook. Nyarly had EotOG in play. GC rolled 1 kill, which CC obvs assigned to Nyarly to reduce it to a pain (which he could still do because Cthulhu was invisible). Our question was, even though Nyarly wasn't killed, does that count as a kill for purposes of GC gaining that spellbook, or does a unit have to be physically removed by the kill rolled? In the end we ruled that it did not count for the spellbook requirement, but we'd like a clarification for future purposes
 
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Ragh Gavar
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It would not count for the Spellbook.

That being said, check the wording of abilities very carefully for keywords. Great Old Ones cannot be targeted by Invisibility.

Edit: In light of what Adam has pointed out, it -would- give Cthulhu his second Kill.
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Bob Horton
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Thanks for the quick response modest
Mordenthral wrote:
That being said, check the wording of abilities very carefully for keywords. Great Old Ones cannot be targeted by Invisibility.
Dayum! We did not spot this! Thank you
 
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Graham Robinson
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In memory of Tara, my beloved Wolfhound-Deerhound cross. Flew away Feb 2016, still missed.
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HortonHearsAWho wrote:
Our question was, even though Nyarly wasn't killed, does that count as a kill for purposes of GC gaining that spellbook, or does a unit have to be physically removed by the kill rolled?


The Omega rulebook specifically calls out Rhan-Tegoth using Eternal to avoid a Kill result as still counting for Cthulhu's spellbook requirement. I can't see why Narly's power would be different.

Cheers,
Graham
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Bob Horton
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therealbuserian wrote:
The Omega rulebook specifically calls out Rhan-Tegoth using Eternal to avoid a Kill result as still counting for Cthulhu's spellbook requirement. I can't see why Narly's power would be different.
But with Rhan doesn't the kill still "happen", just its effect of removing Rhan is negated? Whereas with Nyarly it is changed into a pain
 
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The Shader
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HortonHearsAWho wrote:
n our game last night that CC was fighting GC and Nyarly was in the battle, Cthulhu was also in the battle but had been Polyp'd. )


quick aside... Monster abilities do not effect great old ones unless they specifically say so
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Adam Starks
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It can be a little confusing, but a Kill on Nyarly that becomes a Pain still triggers any Kill-effects. I'm not sure why this is rules-wise, except that it's been stated in a few different ways, but the balance reason is so that everyone can generally benefit from their stuff (that is to say, Eternal/Emissary/Demand-Sacrifice aren't intended to block Cthulhu's Requirements/Cannibalism/Harbinger).
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Adam Starks
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therealtheshader wrote:
HortonHearsAWho wrote:
n our game last night that CC was fighting GC and Nyarly was in the battle, Cthulhu was also in the battle but had been Polyp'd. )


quick aside... Monster abilities do not effect great old ones unless they specifically say so

That's not a general rule, but most Monster abilities specifically target Cultists/Monsters. Howl, however, can in fact be used on an enemy Great Old One (and Terrors, for that matter), because it has no explicit targeting restrictions.
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Alex Hobbit
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AdamStarks wrote:
... Eternal/Emissary/Demand-Sacrifice aren't intended to block Cthulhu's Requirements/Cannibalism/Harbinger).


Demand Sacrifice is, as it modifies the roll Pre-Battle.
 
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Gary Bradley
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therealtheshader wrote:
HortonHearsAWho wrote:
n our game last night that CC was fighting GC and Nyarly was in the battle, Cthulhu was also in the battle but had been Polyp'd. )


quick aside... Monster abilities do not effect great old ones unless they specifically say so


They typically only target "Monsters or Cultists" which would mean Terrors are immune also. One to watch out for.
 
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Adam Starks
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Alcex wrote:
AdamStarks wrote:
... Eternal/Emissary/Demand-Sacrifice aren't intended to block Cthulhu's Requirements/Cannibalism/Harbinger).


Demand Sacrifice is, as it modifies the roll Pre-Battle.

The rolls are actually modified in Post-Battle (i.e. after they've been rolled, before which they can't be modified) so I'm not sure that's actually the case. For instance, Star Vampires definitely still drain a Doom if they roll a Kill, even if that roll is turned into a Pain.

I suppose this particular question is technically unanswered, but considering every similar question results in "Side A gets the side-benefit of the Kill, Side B ignores it / is Pained / etc", that's going to be my default assumption for this case as well.
 
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Joan Bofill

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Imagine Great Cthulhu and a Star Vampire battling a lonely cultist.
Cthulhu Pre-Battle devours the cultist, so no units are remaining, so no dice have to be rolled, but there is a Star Vampire who must roll it's dice separately, so the dice is rolled even when it should not.
If the roll is a kill, would Great Cthulhu fulfill the Devour or Kill 2 units?
 
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Adam Starks
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In that case, no, because combat results in excess of the number of enemy units are ignored, same as if 2 Star Spawn were battling 1 enemy Cultist and rolled 2 Kills out of their 6 dice. The only reason the Star Vampires still get their Doom in that case is because of their ability wording and an FAQ.
 
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Alex Hobbit
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Grifwl wrote:
Imagine Great Cthulhu and a Star Vampire battling a lonely cultist.
Cthulhu Pre-Battle devours the cultist, so no units are remaining, so no dice have to be rolled, but there is a Star Vampire who must roll it's dice separately, so the dice is rolled even when it should not.
If the roll is a kill, would Great Cthulhu fulfill the Devour or Kill 2 units?


The battle would end after Pre-Battle, so no.
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Guillaume Andriot
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I dunno about this... I feel Rhan-Tegoth is an exception.

Cthulhu's Spellbook requirement is to kill enemy units in battle, not roll to 6s in battle.

If a 6 is assigned to Rhan-Tegoth, thats a kill. WW can just choose to pay 1 power to ignore its effects. Just like how Azatoth or the Watcher can take kills without dying immediatly. The kill happened, but the units was not removed from the board as a result.

If a 6 is rolled and assigned to Nyarlathotep while he has emmissary of the outer gods and no enemy GOO is in the battle, thats not a kill, thats a pain. Cthulhu get nothing.

Likewise, if you don't offer Tribute to Sleeper, roll all the 6 you want, those will be pains, not kills. It would look really really dumb to me if Cthulhu could attack Tsathoguaa, refuse to pay tribute, roll a bunch of 6 that don't kill anything, and still get his grimoires fullfilled.

If an official ruling say otherwise then its a poorly tought ruling and I will probably ignore it at my table.
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Mauricio Alcoba T.
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Yep, turn a kill to pain is not a kill anymore. Only Rhan-Tegoth is the exception.
 
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Pierre Lanrezac
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mauuroo wrote:
Yep, turn a kill to pain is not a kill anymore. Only Rhan-Tegoth is the exception.


Yes because Rhan does not ignore the Kill, but the effect of the Kill (ie dying)
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