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Subject: My Thoughts and Opinions On Legacy Games rss

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David Tepfer
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xxxavierxxx wrote:
4) I think that before purchasing a legacy game, your game group should agree to it. Additionally, I think that the cost of legacy games should be split by the group who will be playing the game as it makes the game less expensive for each player and it may improve commitment from the group. This way, if the group bails, you've not invested very much.


This is kind of one of the things I do dislike about legacy games (though in general I do like them). The fact that you do have to have a dedicated play group for them really limits how much you can get out of them.

I wish there was a way to have a game with a progressive story line that would allow drop in/drop out play. I would be a lot more on board with them if I could.
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Joshua Jones
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xxxavierxxx wrote:

5) I think that once a legacy game is complete, if any one player wants to keep the completed game, they can buy the others out. If more than one person wants to keep the completed game, they can roll a dice or play a game to duke it out and see who keeps it.


I actually think the best (and most gamer) way to handle this is to auction it off. Highest bidder takes it, with the money paid split between the others.
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The Screaming Brain wrote:
I wish there was a way to have a game with a progressive story line that would allow drop in/drop out play. I would be a lot more on board with them if I could.

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xxxavierxxx wrote:

2) I think that some of the people who are against destructible legacy games because they can't be played again from start to finish would probably get more play sessions from that one legacy game than from many other individual games in their collections (at least 10 play sessions).


If you think that getting 10 play sessions of a game you like is unusual, then I'd agree you're the target market for legacy games.
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Excellent, a day on BGG would NOT be complete without a new thread about Legacy games! Bravo!!!

If I may, I'd like to make a suggestion to the site admins...perhaps a new forum could be established - "Legacy Games Opinions". That way, we could immerse ourselves in the collective brilliance of the countless "Legacy Games - Why I think they are (fill in the blank)" threads that respawn here on a daily basis, without the trouble of looking for them individually!
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
xxxavierxxx wrote:

2) I think that some of the people who are against destructible legacy games because they can't be played again from start to finish would probably get more play sessions from that one legacy game than from many other individual games in their collections (at least 10 play sessions).


If you think that getting 10 play sessions of a game you like is unusual, then I'd agree you're the target market for legacy games.


Yeah - I tend to agree that 10 sessions of most games IS unusual, considering how many people own large collections. Less so for simple and quick euros, moreso when wargames and other longer experiences come into the equation.

I suspect that most people at BGG buy games that look awesome and aspire to 10 sessions, but aren't able to reach that number due to a lack of time and/or willing opponents. In fact, I'd wager that the number of games bought with good intentions that rarely/never get played is significantly greater than the number of games played 10 or more times.

Of course, some people do play their games repeatedly.
If you are lucky enough to fall into that category, awesome!

desertfox2004 wrote:
Excellent, a day on BGG would NOT be complete without a new thread about Legacy games! Bravo!!!

If I may, I'd like to make a suggestion to the site admins...perhaps a new forum could be established - "Legacy Games Opinions". That way, we could immerse ourselves in the collective brilliance of the countless "Legacy Games - Why I think they are (fill in the blank)" threads that respawn here on a daily basis, without the trouble of looking for them individually!


Maybe we can put that forum next to the "Snarky responses to new users" one? Or should it be closer to the "Post in a thread that you don't care about or have a relevant opinion on" forum?
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1- well there is some truth there. Its not as simple as you make it out to be though. Its about the cost of the game, and not just in price. I am one person who might eventually like legacy games but they need some more work for me to jump on board. So for now I have been giving bad ratings to pandemic legacy because I think the game is flawed and the legacy is a part of it.

2- nope and if there are people with less than 10 plays the game tends to go to get traded to someone else who now can treat the game like its new.

3- its a new fad and it could have some long lasting effects so if we talk about it now we could have a positive impact.

4 and 5- I guess that could work. Seems like too much thought and stress on a group of friends. I don't like having to make contracts for my free time.

6- eeehhh again I just don't see the relationships your trying to connect.

lemme ask you this, what do we gain from a legacy game vs if that game was made into a campain game? Why design it in a destructive way?
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Oh, look, that teeroller again, this time out to demonstrate just how little he knows ...

xxxavierxxx wrote:
... allow those who sleeve every game to play a game without sleeves ...



... about the Sleever family.
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Legomancer wrote:

Clearly!
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xxxavierxxx wrote:
mafman6 wrote:
lemme ask you this, what do we gain from a legacy game vs if that game was made into a campain game? Why design it in a destructive way?



Cathartic release?

Ok, but really:

I don't think you have to destroy the cards if you don't want to, but some of the changes made to the cards and board are permanent anyway, so that would cause destruction in a sense. Yes there may be a million ways to circumvent this, but some people, clearly, like that and those that don't won't buy the game (but some will complain about it on BGG).

Actually, the destroying and recycling of pieces is far more environmentally responsible than the eco-terroristic practices of non legacy diehards.
I play Legacy games because I like the earth.
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xxxavierxxx wrote:
but some people, clearly, like that and those that don't won't buy the game (but some will complain about it on BGG).

well no because there is not a "pandemic campaign" game out there and I think it would do better. It would give you everything a legacy game would except you wouldn't get just 10 plays out of it with one group.
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xxxavierxxx wrote:
6) I think that some legacy games (the non-resettable/destructible types) would allow those who sleeve every game to play a game without sleeves (another popular thread).
I sleeve my legacy games.

Pete (thinks that's a critical step if you want to reset them later)
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xxxavierxxx wrote:
mafman6 wrote:
xxxavierxxx wrote:
but some people, clearly, like that and those that don't won't buy the game (but some will complain about it on BGG).

well no because there is not a "pandemic campaign" game out there and I think it would do better. It would give you everything a legacy game would except you wouldn't get just 10 plays out of it with one group.


While I don't have definitive evidence to back this up (nor would you have definitive evidence to counter it), if people can't get a game played at least 10 times, I don't think they would play the same legacy game twice. And if you're talking about reselling the game or trading it once you're done, I don't think the publisher is worried about that one bit.

ugh no what I'm saying is a legacy game gives you a limited number of plays in a limited setting. Yes you can technically plop a player in for a single session but those are negative compromises.
If they changed legacy to campaign I think it would do much better because players would get the benefits without the restrictions and cost.
 
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Trevor S.
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xxxavierxxx wrote:
1) I think that some of the people who, based on their BGG postings, are vehemently against legacy games secretly want to play them.

2) I think that some of the people who are against destructible legacy games because they can't be played again from start to finish would probably get more play sessions from that one legacy game than from many other individual games in their collections (at least 10 play sessions).

3) I think it's impressive how out of nearly 100,000 games on BGG, a few (legacy) games have been the topic of so much discussion (including this thread).

4) I think that before purchasing a legacy game, your game group should agree to it. Additionally, I think that the cost of legacy games should be split by the group who will be playing the game as it makes the game less expensive for each player and it may improve commitment from the group. This way, if the group bails, you've not invested very much.

5) I think that once a legacy game is complete, if any one player wants to keep the completed game, they can buy the others out. If more than one person wants to keep the completed game, they can roll a dice or play a game to duke it out and see who keeps it.

6) I think that some legacy games (the non-resettable/destructible types) would allow those who sleeve every game to play a game without sleeves (another popular thread).


So, what should we do with all of your thinks?
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I love Legacy games but still

Cblankoblankoblanklblanksblanktblankoblankrblankyblankbblankrblanko

We don’t need more of these threads. If everyone starts a new post for their personal opinion on every board game issue we’ll have zillions of nearly identical threads.

Hopefully we can skip next week’s blog on Legacy games.
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DZ Woloshyn
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mafman6 wrote:
lemme ask you this, what do we gain from a legacy game vs if that game was made into a campain game? Why design it in a destructive way?


This debate has gone on long enough now that if you still don't understand the answer to this lynchpin question, then you don't want to understand it.

When you make a decision in a game that can be reset, no matter how much you are invested in the game, there is a detached calm to it, because you KNOW that everything will go back to normal when you have finished. If you screw up, then you can do better next time. Laugh it off, no harm, no foul. Maude Flanders and Eddard Stark will be back in the next episode.

When you make a decision that results in a permanent change, there's a gravity and hesitation while you weigh short-term and long-term effects. You will never get a chance to do this next sequence of events over again. The winning strategy keeps changing, a little at a time or in a big chunk, and you have to change with it. Just cracking open the box has a deep-breath-here-we-go aspect to it. No learning curve; no practice game.

So, what you "gain" are the weights of responsibility and power and the sensation that you are walking into something unprepared and will have to make the best of it. It's the one-shot interview at your dream job. It's the decision to rescue the kitten by smashing open the priceless vase. Do you return the cash that you found on the beach after that family left, or do you keep it?

If you want to experience something similar, but are offended by the expenditure of money to do so, then I suggest that you check out R_Winder's Make-As-You-Play guild and his first game, Deep Future.
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Dizzy is Calm wrote:
mafman6 wrote:
lemme ask you this, what do we gain from a legacy game vs if that game was made into a campain game? Why design it in a destructive way?


This debate has gone on long enough now that if you still don't understand the answer to this lynchpin question, then you don't want to understand it.

it was directed at xavier.
I'm guessing here but he made no mention of the "weight of the situation" thing and so I don't think that factors into his views. I get the argument but I have two separate groups playing pandemic and both don't the weight thing much at all. One of the players from one group actually consider it a negative thing making them more AP prone, obviously he got over it but it took the attitude of the group to help him.

Besides I think thats just a design flaw that can be corrected and capitalized on. I think my family would LOVE pandemic legacy if they could reset and play the last three sessions or take out a critical effect and see how it would turn out.
 
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xxxavierxxx wrote:
1) I think that some of the people who, based on their BGG postings, are vehemently against legacy games secretly want to play them.

As one of the most vehement anti-legacy posters, let me be clear about something; I absolutely, non-secretly, really want to play campaign games; games where the situation changes and evolves over multiple games. These are among my favorite type of games. Sadly, they have always been extremely rare.

The biggest source of my frustration is that while legacy games are still relatively rare, they seem to be moving to utterly dominate the 'campaign' space. I've seen some KS campaigns decide to add legacy content to what wasn't originally supposed to be a legacy game. If I want campaign games, but not legacy games, there are looking to be very few options for it.

I did a check out of curiosity back when some of the debate about legacy games started. Averaging my plays of campaign games, I have an average of 60 plays per game. And that includes stinkers like Myth that I considered literally unplayable out of the box - I still gave it half a dozen shots entirely BECAUSE it had a campaign and I really wanted more campaign games.

To me, legacy is entirely a gimmick to stop second-hand sales and to require people to buy the same game multiple times for either multiple groups or repeat plays. Like DRM or IAPs, it gives nothing to me as a customer; only more expense and the intention of controlling the way I can use the game. I get that apparently for some people the destruction itself adds to their experience, for them, somehow the knowledge that if they want to play again they have to buy again adds to their enjoyment of the game. That entire concept is utterly foreign and unimaginable to me; I could always choose to destroy a game after playing it if I really enjoyed wrecking the game; I don't need explicit demands from the publisher/designer to do that!

I do worry, perhaps excessively, about legacy coming to dominate board games as a whole I don't know if its just a new "genre" like CCGs or deck-builders were (though, deck builders dominated for a painfully long time) or if is more like IAPs, which have now totally consumed and destroyed iOS gaming.

But at the moment, it is something I can't stand that is being offered as the only alternative for a genre I truly love.
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xxxavierxxx wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
I love Legacy games but still

Cblankoblankoblanklblanksblanktblankoblankrblankyblankbblankrblanko

We don’t need more of these threads. If everyone starts a new post for their personal opinion on every board game issue we’ll have zillions of nearly identical threads.

Hopefully we can skip next week’s blog on Legacy games.


I'm tempted to start a thread on all the hate about specific threads...

Seriously though. I don't understand why people who aren't interested in a thread go to it just to complain. You are under no obligation, whatsoever, to click on a thread (and no obligation to comment on it). When you own the forum, you can make all the rules you want.


Been done. You'll have to go more meta than that. Maybe a thread about the hate on threads about threads that hate legacy games. That's probably been done too.
 
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For me there are too many catch up mechanisms that make previous play and decisions irrelevant. If you are in it for the story then legacy games could be right for you but then again if I want story I play Eldritch Horror and have spent a lot of hours doing just that though I have spent more money on it than any legacy game. So up to now I have no desire to play a legacy game as they all seem to be too easy and that is because you don't want people losing the campaign in month 3 of PL as that would stop too many buying it.
If you like legacy games enjoy them, no need to get defensive about them but understand they are not for everyone.
 
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xxxavierxxx wrote:
Sometimes you gotta pay for the things you love, and if you follow thought number 4 from my original post, it won't cost you very much at all.

why?
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mafman6 wrote:


lemme ask you this, what do we gain from a legacy game vs if that game was made into a campain game? Why design it in a destructive way?


I have no interest in legacy games myself, but I can understand why that's different.

It's permanence that gives decisions their edge.

Which I get. I play video games with permadeath for the same reason. And they are categorically different play experiences from games that allow you to load from save.
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
Which I get. I play video games with permadeath for the same reason. And they are categorically different play experiences from games that allow you to load from save.

how long do you play those video games before you buy another copy?
 
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Quote:
1) I think that some of the people who, based on their BGG postings, are vehemently against legacy games secretly want to play them.

I think that some of the people might... not me though cool

Quote:
2) I think that some of the people who are against destructible legacy games because they can't be played again from start to finish would probably get more play sessions from that one legacy game than from many other individual games in their collections (at least 10 play sessions).

I think that as said above this is mainly true for people with large collections where they don't get to play their games that much. 10 play sessions out of a game is what I get the first couple of months after I buy it... I am literally planning to play the games I buy for the rest of my life (I am not a compulsive buyer, not I plan to have a 100 games collection any time soon... so this might not apply to me either).

Quote:
3) I think it's impressive how out of nearly 100,000 games on BGG, a few (legacy) games have been the topic of so much discussion (including this thread).

I think that's impressive too

Quote:
4) I think that before purchasing a legacy game, your game group should agree to it. Additionally, I think that the cost of legacy games should be split by the group who will be playing the game as it makes the game less expensive for each player and it may improve commitment from the group. This way, if the group bails, you've not invested very much.

I think that's not doable in most cases but might be a good option for aquiring big box games when you have a fixed group (again, not my case)

Quote:
5) I think that once a legacy game is complete, if any one player wants to keep the completed game, they can buy the others out. If more than one person wants to keep the completed game, they can roll a dice or play a game to duke it out and see who keeps it.

I think they should fight to the death! After all if you have no problem destroying components whats one or two destroyed necks... just kidding... or am I?

Quote:
6) I think that some legacy games (the non-resettable/destructible types) would allow those who sleeve every game to play a game without sleeves (another popular thread).

I will never stop sleeving my games... it's a problem at this point blush


I honestly think that my main problem with some legacy games is that they offer me a similar feeling than a video game...
Take GloomHaven... It's great, it's awesome, it's EPIC, but it's a huge box that costs a lot of money with lot's of setup time and you need people to really get into it to finish it and not bail out and you put stickers in a map and in cards and use sharpies to change everything gulp... that's just wrong man... what has happen to the world??? THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! laugh

Honestly if I am looking for that sort of "feeling" I rather play a video game RPG... and I get to save progress with one click laugh

IN MY PARTICULAR CASE I like boardgames to be able to play in a couple of hours and finish the game. That's why I am clearly not the target for Legacy games... I have an OCD of sorts... I literally cringe in the component drop of EVERY dice tower video... I am not tailor for this type of product... and I think there are many people out there like me... not everyone is against them just because... Some people like them, some don't...

But there is definitly a market for them and I am honestly glad so many people get to enjoy them... I pass though.

Cheers

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