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Subject: From What You Can Tell, Are the KS Exclusives More Game Changing Than They Are in Blood Rage? rss

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Gustavo Sanchez
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I never got the chance to play with the BR exclusives, but though they obviously add to the game, most reports I've read are that you don't miss out on too much by not having them.

I realize the game hasn't been released yet, but from what you can tell, does that hold true for Rising Sun as well?
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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Well you miss out on a whole exclusive clan, which is pretty big. The problem with the ks blood rage stuff, is not everyone was a fan. I have several friends who prefer not to play with the stuff. I'm obviously hoping for stuff everyone likes with the ks stuff for rising sun.

Personally, I wouldn't buy any game of CMON at retail. They vary in how much you miss out on. But I'm a completest, and tracking down stuff for their games after release is pain in the ass. I either KS or I'm out forever.
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Mr. Octavius
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SeerMagic wrote:
Well you miss out on a whole exclusive clan, which is pretty big.


This. Not having the KS exclusives mean not being able to play the base game with 6 players. You can play 6 with the expansion, but then you are forced to use the 'lucky gods' which I've seen some people complain about the added complexity.

So the big issue with not having the KS version is not being able to play the basic version of the game with 6 players. The extra monsters may add some more variety, but only one person will be using each monster if they actually get purchased.

If you don't plan on playing 6 then it's not a big deal.
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Noel Szczepanski
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I don't think the base game has enough to keep the game fresh. The clan asymmetry and the lack variability in initial setup will result in a single optimal strategy for each clan. The "extras" really adds the variability that will keep the game from quickly becoming stale.

Blood Rage didn't suffer from this for two reason: 1) Their strategy wasn't per-determined by an asymmetrical clan power so they had to be flexible in each round with their approach (true with Rising Sun but to a lesser degree), and 2) Card drafting in BR is way more interactive than the RS card purchase.
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Becq
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I also feel as though the exclusives will have a significantly greater impact on the game than Blood Rage. The clan is a big one, due to clan asymmetry in Rising Sun that didn't exist in Blood Rage. But there are also more exclusive monsters (I think it's 10 compared to 4). Was there a KSE season deck? I don't recall.
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E Braude
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while i agree that there are a lot of KSE monsters (and some cool plastic bits), if you want you can use the miniatures and clan screen of one of the expansion clans but the rules of the fox clan
 
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Christof
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No, the season cards are all non-exclusive. I think the additional ones are packed with one of the expansions.
 
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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P0isson wrote:
I don't think the base game has enough to keep the game fresh. The clan asymmetry and the lack variability in initial setup will result in a single optimal strategy for each clan. The "extras" really adds the variability that will keep the game from quickly becoming stale.


There's which clans are in the game at less than full player count, which set of completely different season cards you're using, and which four of seven Kami are available, so I feel like there will be plenty of variability with just what's in the base box.
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Michael R

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Santiago wrote:
... completely different season cards you're using ...


Actually, you always play with the core season cards and the different sets only add a few additional cards (some of which are shared across sets). So I doubt that this will change a clan's strategy much.

Then again, I generally agree that between the different Kami, different battle token arrangements, and different alliances (edit: not to forget, all clans but Lotus can only choose from a limited subset of mandates in their turn!), you have to adapt a lot and there is plenty of replayability. I actually played dozens of games already, still having fun without any of the KS exclusive stuff.
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Gustavo Sanchez
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Maebon wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
Well you miss out on a whole exclusive clan, which is pretty big.


This. Not having the KS exclusives mean not being able to play the base game with 6 players.


How well does this game play with six players? Does anyone here know?

I ask cause I know plenty of 4-5 players games that do NOT work well with 6 players.
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Niall Smyth
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There are exclusive monsters, aren’t there? And monsters are recruited using season cards, right? So surely there must be KSE season cards?
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Dustin Crenshaw
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tricil wrote:
Actually, you always play with the core season cards and the different sets only add a few additional cards (some of which are shared across sets). So I doubt that this will change a clan's strategy much.


That's not entirely true. As you can custom build your season cards to change them to your liking. I wasn't on board until I knew this as it means the blood rage loki strategy won't be appearing in my game. You could also do them randomly by a certain amount of each color.
 
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Noel Szczepanski
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tricil wrote:
Santiago wrote:
... completely different season cards you're using ...


Actually, you always play with the core season cards and the different sets only add a few additional cards (some of which are shared across sets). So I doubt that this will change a clan's strategy much.


This is exactly right. Your strategy is already largely dictated for you based on the clans' strengths.


tricil wrote:
Then again, I generally agree that between the different Kami, different battle token arrangements, and different alliances


Only seven different Kami and clans have strong synergy with specific Kami and those are the Kami you'll focus on every time in order to compete.

The battle token arrangements don't drive strategy so I'd say their impact on variability is very minimal.

I'm not sure where you're going with the different alliances? I mean if that's your criteria you could claim every game has a ton of variability based on the interaction with the different players at the table. Monopoly is highly variable and replayable because you can make different trades with people....

tricil wrote:
you have to adapt a lot and there is plenty of replayability. I actually played dozens of games already, still having fun without any of the KS exclusive stuff.


I haven't played dozens of games yet but I have played it and I was concerned immediately after the first play. Just glad I backed everything because I stand by my assessment that the game will feel very Catan-like after a half-dozen plays. the game is better than I expected, by a lot, but if you're looking for an Eric Lang game that has a similar feel with more replayability I'd look to Godfather.
 
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A Frag
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SeerMagic wrote:
Well you miss out on a whole exclusive clan, which is pretty big. The problem with the ks blood rage stuff, is not everyone was a fan. I have several friends who prefer not to play with the stuff. I'm obviously hoping for stuff everyone likes with the ks stuff for rising sun.

Personally, I wouldn't buy any game of CMON at retail. They vary in how much you miss out on. But I'm a completest, and tracking down stuff for their games after release is pain in the ass. I either KS or I'm out forever.


This is the same for me, although, I am not above the secondary market. I ended up buying the full Blood Rage KS on the secondary market early before the prices got too ridiculous. Still it’s all or nothing for me. I truly hope they change their business model in the future as people like you and I are not as rare as it may appear. In their defense though, it’s hard to argue with their success...
 
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Igor Persin
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afrag wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
Well you miss out on a whole exclusive clan, which is pretty big. The problem with the ks blood rage stuff, is not everyone was a fan. I have several friends who prefer not to play with the stuff. I'm obviously hoping for stuff everyone likes with the ks stuff for rising sun.

Personally, I wouldn't buy any game of CMON at retail. They vary in how much you miss out on. But I'm a completest, and tracking down stuff for their games after release is pain in the ass. I either KS or I'm out forever.


This is the same for me, although, I am not above the secondary market. I ended up buying the full Blood Rage KS on the secondary market early before the prices got too ridiculous. Still it’s all or nothing for me. I truly hope they change their business model in the future as people like you and I are not as rare as it may appear. In their defense though, it’s hard to argue with their success...


Don't think they plan to change their business model any time soon...just look at their new KS coming, HATE...
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Mr. Octavius
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smurfORnot wrote:
afrag wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
Well you miss out on a whole exclusive clan, which is pretty big. The problem with the ks blood rage stuff, is not everyone was a fan. I have several friends who prefer not to play with the stuff. I'm obviously hoping for stuff everyone likes with the ks stuff for rising sun.

Personally, I wouldn't buy any game of CMON at retail. They vary in how much you miss out on. But I'm a completest, and tracking down stuff for their games after release is pain in the ass. I either KS or I'm out forever.


This is the same for me, although, I am not above the secondary market. I ended up buying the full Blood Rage KS on the secondary market early before the prices got too ridiculous. Still it’s all or nothing for me. I truly hope they change their business model in the future as people like you and I are not as rare as it may appear. In their defense though, it’s hard to argue with their success...


Don't think they plan to change their business model any time soon...just look at their new KS coming, HATE...


Well with HATE they're just not bothering with retail all together.

The cynical part of me wonders how much of that decision was based on capitalizing on FOMO.
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Jeff Wagner
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I am not sold on variability being the key to replay ability. I want a game that only requires a limited time to understand and master the concepts and goals, such that it becomes a challenge of player against player and not about who has played the game the most time and understands all of the variations.

If every game is radically different it is like a learning game every time you play; especially if it does not often get to the table.
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Gustavo Sanchez
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Maebon wrote:
Well with HATE they're just not bothering with retail all together.


I thought I had heard they were gonna stop doing Kickstarters in favor of more general retail distribution. Did I hear wrong?
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Cameron Lucas
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jeffwagner wrote:

I am not sold on variability being the key to replay ability. I want a game that only requires a limited time to understand and master the concepts and goals, such that it becomes a challenge of player against player and not about who has played the game the most time and understands all of the variations.

If every game is radically different it is like a learning game every time you play; especially if it does not often get to the table.


Good point.

Variability can be part of what makes a game replayable, but it's far from the only factor.

I think I somewhat agree in that I like my games to have some variability because I like the challenge of figuring out what I'm going to do with what's set before me. My hope is that the mandates and war tokens will provide some of that, but I fully expect for me that the replayability will rear its head more in the social aspects of the game than the mechanical.
 
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Barry Duran
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And with the KS, you get Godzilla!
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Gustavo Sanchez
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gelaar wrote:
And with the KS, you get Godzilla!


Haha yeah, just noticed that.
 
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Ashley Watkins
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I think rising sun has more important exclusives then bloodrage. Such as the strongholds which make a big upgrade in visual appearance and the mahjong style mandates will feel great. Also there are a lot more exclusive monsters in this campaign then bloodrage. Some have mentioned the ks clan, but bloodrage also had a ks clan
 
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Geoff ...
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Ashyo wrote:
I think rising sun has more important exclusives then bloodrage. Such as the strongholds which make a big upgrade in visual appearance and the mahjong style mandates will feel great. Also there are a lot more exclusive monsters in this campaign then bloodrage. Some have mentioned the ks clan, but bloodrage also had a ks clan

Yes but the Blood Rage clan is effectively a pallet swap. Rising Sun clans are unique.
 
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jeffwagner wrote:

I am not sold on variability being the key to replay ability. I want a game that only requires a limited time to understand and master the concepts and goals, such that it becomes a challenge of player against player and not about who has played the game the most time and understands all of the variations.

If every game is radically different it is like a learning game every time you play; especially if it does not often get to the table.


Sir! You have made words out of something bouncing around my head for months. Thank you!
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It's hard to tell because CMON games vary so much. I think Massive Darkness has more variability in gameplay than someone who just has the core box because the roaming monsters in it all act differently and I received 22 of them. The core box has 6 which is FAR too few for longevity. But then Blood Rage was fairly okay at retail as you said. To be safe, if you can, always go KS with CMON.

The only reason I don't own Arcadia Quests is because it bothers me I won't have all the KS choices :/
 
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