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Subject: When does the season change trigger? rss

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Willis Dell
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After reading the rulebook (pp. 7+9, specifically), I have a few unresolved questions:

1. ON YOUR TURN: PLAY A CARD --- On your turn, you must play one card from your hand into one field of your choice. You may perform any one of the following actions as long as the season in the field permits it...

My question: Should the "you may perform any one of the following actions" be read as "you must"? If not, what happens when a card is played to a field in which there is no legal action? (e.g., I played a card to the Winter field and there are no cards to Stockpile or Harvest (let's say it's the end of the game where this could happen), and I'm disallowed from Sowing).



2. ON YOUR TURN: CHANGING THE SEASON

My question: When exactly does the season change trigger? We have currently been playing it as:
1. Choose a card from your hand
2. Play it in a season and declare which action you plan to take with said card (keeping in mind the three limitations based on Season)
3. Resolve that action as necessary
4. If the card played was a face card, resolve the season change
5. Draw card(s)
6. Collect okus, flip/collect Luminary, reseed the field (all: if applicable)
7. Pass turn

That said, the Use the seasons paragraph on p. 13 is what's really throwing me for a loop in reading this. While I understand the strategy of Sowing in Winter, outside of playing an attrition game against the player you think might have the card to immediately harvest your sown card, it seems like you're just delaying the inevitable unless the following is permissible:

1. I play a Queen of Winter card to the Winter field, naming Sow as my action
2. On my next turn, I play a Queen of Spring to the Winter field, the Illimat rotates to Spring, and I declare that I'm taking the Harvest action

I'm assuming that each of the steps/actions are discrete from one another and therefore the former is more likely to be the correct interpretation of the rules, but I'd be curious to get an official verdict one way or the other, as the combo-at-heart player in me likes the idea of being able to use seasonal changed mid-turn to set up more complex plays.
 
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Keith Baker
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Hi Willis!

First of all: Your original interpretation of the timing is correct. Play your card, resolve the effects of your actions, and only then change the season before you draw up.

What Page 13 is referring is using a face card to change the season in a way that handicaps an opponent's actions. Here's a few examples that spring to mind:

1. If another player makes a stockpile, you have advance warning of a future move. If you can change the season of the field they've stockpiled in to Winter, you can prevent them from harvesting that stockpile on their next turn. In one 3-player game I was in recently, a player stockpiled three fools on the first turn - and the other two players were able to prevent her from ever harvesting the Fools by shifting that field back to Winter every time she changed it.

2. Are you building a stockpile that will let you clear a field on your next turn? If you can make the field Autumn as part of your action, you ensure that someone else won't sow a card into the field to prevent you from clearing it.

It's not something that is always relevant, but there will definitely be moments when shifting the season can have a dramatic effect on the game.

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Willis Dell
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Thanks for the reply, Keith. I'm glad to know we were doing things correctly.

For some reason, I keep forgetting that the Stockpile action cannot be a bluff and has to convey hand information, which then in turn feeds information to other players as to what/how they want to play their next turn.

Point #2 is spicy and not something I've actively considered/pursued as a multi-turn strategy at this point. This is a testament to the emergent strategy of the game and how seemingly innocuous plays can have a huge impact if set up correctly.

After getting trounced by both you and Funk at PAX, I'm hoping to continue delving into the intricacies of this game and catch you guys for a rematch at some event in the future.

Thanks again!
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Thomas Gamer
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Keith,

The OP in step 6 made an error I believe.

My understanding from watching your play videos is that a Luminary is not flipped if there are not enough cards to reseed the field. (That is, you must reseed the field first)

AND that if there are not enough cards, those few cards are discarded with the unflipped Luminary (regardless of any possible modifying effects that the Luminary might have).

Do I have this correct?

and THANK YOU!
 
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Willis Dell
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Thomas,

I simplified/combined the turn order information towards the end, as my question was mostly centered around the timing of events in 1-4.

Not to step on Keith's toes, but you are correct:

From p. 6:
Quote:
The first time a field is cleared, the Luminary is flipped over and revealed. The field is reseeded with three new cards. If this is impossible because there are fewer than three cards in the deck, the Luminary is immediately discarded with no effect



This is one very minor gripe with the rulebook... This should be mentioned on pp. 9-10 in the On Your Turn portion, as during the course of play pp. 7-10 are the usual reference points for showing new players the steps they would take during their turns.

Quote:
If there is a face-down Luminary in the field, reveal it and resolved any of its immediate effects ADD: if there are three or more cards remaining in the deck
 
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Thomas Gamer
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Willis,

What I also found very surprising was that if there are not 3 cards left, then those cards would be discarded along with the Luminary, which is not hinted at in the rules nor would this be seen as a normal extension of another rule behavior about discarding cards.

In fact, the normal Luminary effect behavior is the exact opposite of this, in that if a Luminary requires extra cards for its power, and there aren't enough cards for it, then, well...the Luminary happily uses less cards!

But this discard behavior is what I saw Keith do in a YouTube Q+A...

Thanks again for your question...maybe Keith with pipe in with a quick comment!

Tom







 
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Thomas Gamer
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We have some clarifications here:
https://www.illimat.com/rulesclarifications/2017/11/27/clear...

My statement above about Luminary effects occurring even if extra cards are not available to fully resource them (Children, River) was wrong.
 
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