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Subject: question about venus expansion rss

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Immortal
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I wanted to know if the expansion makes the game imbalanced if only 1 person choose to buy/use venus cards in the game in a multiplayer game(2 players) thank you very much
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Patrick G.
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nightwishpower wrote:
I wanted to know if the expansion makes the game imbalanced if only 1 person choose to buy/use venus cards in the game in a multiplayer game(2 players) thank you very much

If only one person decides to buy science does that imbalance the game?

What about space cards?
I guess my point is that if people choose to ignore something it can benefit people who don't...
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Immortal
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you cant focus in everything in the game anyway. What I meant is, are venus stuff in the expansion overpowered compared to anything else in the base game...
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RyuSora
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nightwishpower wrote:
you cant focus in everything in the game anyway. What I meant is, are venus stuff in the expansion overpowered compared to anything else in the base game...


Quick answer: No.

short answer: Would the designer make an expansion that completely ruins and break the balance of the game? Definitely no.

wall text answer: Only the designer can give you one of that
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Florian Ruckeisen
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nightwishpower wrote:
What I meant is, are venus stuff in the expansion overpowered compared to anything else in the base game...

No, they're not. There are synergies which can become extremely powerful, particularly when you pile up cards that produce and use Floaters. But that's no different than combos that already exist in the basegame, like mass science or big titanium production plus Jovians.
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I could see that Venus Next might change the balance on certain things just a little. For example, it increases the density of space tags in the deck, which could slightly increase the value of titanium production. Definitely nothing game breaking though.
 
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Robert Schraut
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We went through the Venus deck one by one and came to the following conclusion.

Pretty much all cards of venus are a little bit stronger than their counterparts in the base game. On a single card that is not a problem. On 40 it is. A little bit like mosquito bites.

After several games we agreed, that the venus expansion has no positive effect whatsoever, but some negative effects. So we kicked it, with exception of dawn city and sponsored academies.

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Örjan Almén
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RobAntilles wrote:
We went through the Venus deck one by one and came to the following conclusion.

Pretty much all cards of venus are a little bit stronger than their counterparts in the base game. On a single card that is not a problem. On 40 it is. A little bit like mosquito bites.

After several games we agreed, that the venus expansion has no positive effect whatsoever, but some negative effects. So we kicked it, with exception of dawn city and sponsored academies.



Can you give some examples of those cards and explain why you believe they are stronger? (in more specific terms)
 
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Robert Schraut
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orjanalmen wrote:
RobAntilles wrote:
We went through the Venus deck one by one and came to the following conclusion.

Pretty much all cards of venus are a little bit stronger than their counterparts in the base game. On a single card that is not a problem. On 40 it is. A little bit like mosquito bites.

After several games we agreed, that the venus expansion has no positive effect whatsoever, but some negative effects. So we kicked it, with exception of dawn city and sponsored academies.



Can you give some examples of those cards and explain why you believe they are stronger? (in more specific terms)



I'll try to give you a few examples. I don't know all the names of venus cards.

Example 1: Acquired Company vs terraforming Contract.
Acquired company is one of the best cards you can get during early game. It is 3 income for 10(13). Terraforming contract will five you 4 income for 8(11) that is simply better. The requirement of 5 TF is a joke as you can easily do that in generation 2 or 3. Both cards can be profitable played until Generation 6. With discounts even later.

Example 2: Building industries vs [Card with requirements of 3 tags that gives 2 steel and costs around 5)
For one you need energy, which you can actually get the hard way if you decide it is worth it. So you pay a maximum of 20 (3+Energy+6), which will amortize in 5 rounds.
The requirements of that other card are (I think to remember) Earth, Jovian and Venus Tag. These Tags are on cards you usually want to play early anyway.
Earth: Acquired company, Sponsors, Earth Catapult, Pets, Lunar Beam etc
Jovian: Vesta Spaceport, IO Mining, Asteroid Mining
Venus:...
So Basically if you are not unlucky you can simply play 2 Steel production for 5+3, which will amortize in 2 generation.

Both Cards do not bring anything new. There was cash production before. There was steel production before. Now they do the same, just better. The only new thing was the floaters, and we simply did not consider them to improve anything.

Example 3: the microbes that create 3M per Microbe. On it's own this card would not be so bad. The cost is around 10, so it would be kind of like Acquired Company (just a far above average card). BUT, it is not on its own. I played one game where my partner had the Ultra cold Fungus combi with that card in Generation 1, and it was absolutely ridiculous. He Cashed in three times in the game for over 40M€.

Other cards I deemed wildly broken (during early game) are "remove floater for one income" and "remove floater for energy production"


I could go on and on about this. We spend over an hour talking and analyzing, so that would be far too much text for anyone to read. But if you want to test for yourself and don't have the all seeing eye of sauron Balanceron sauron You can do the following: (needs two copies of mars and one of Venus)

Play a regular game (try to play unbiased). In generation 4 or 5, take the Venus cards and their counterparts from the base game (most of them have something like a twin brother). Take two of those pairs, random, onto your hand so you have 4 like you would in a regular research phase. Then think which card you would rather pick. The card from the expansion, or the card from the original.
 
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RobAntilles wrote:
Example 3: the microbes that create 3M per Microbe. On it's own this card would not be so bad. The cost is around 10, so it would be kind of like Acquired Company (just a far above average card). BUT, it is not on its own. I played one game where my partner had the Ultra cold Fungus combi with that card in Generation 1, and it was absolutely ridiculous. He Cashed in three times in the game for over 40M€.

Well, Earth Catapult can pay off over 40M€ too. And it only costs about 15 after you subtract what you are paying for the 2 VP. And it is only one card - no combo needed! My point is that strong things like this do exist in the base game.
 
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Robert Schraut
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True. And as the other thread (Survey most powerful card) showed a lot o people consider Earth Catapult the strongest card in the game. I won a two player game yesterday with 165 to 164. He had 8 Jovians with three multipliers. I had the catapult in generation 2.

Basically overpowered cards are a problem. And you don't need more of them.
 
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Mavis
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RobAntilles wrote:
I won a two player game yesterday with 165 to 164. He had 8 Jovians with three multipliers. I had the catapult in generation 2.


To me this seems to demonstrate there are numerous ways to score big points and that the variety of combinations and 'powerful' cards lead to close games.
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Jonathan Challis
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RobAntilles wrote:

Basically overpowered cards are a problem. And you don't need more of them.


I'd argue the reverse - you want lots of them, then they don't matter. 1 OP card is a problem, 100 aren't...
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Jonathan Fryxelius
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RobAntilles wrote:
orjanalmen wrote:
RobAntilles wrote:
We went through the Venus deck one by one and came to the following conclusion.

Pretty much all cards of venus are a little bit stronger than their counterparts in the base game. On a single card that is not a problem. On 40 it is. A little bit like mosquito bites.

After several games we agreed, that the venus expansion has no positive effect whatsoever, but some negative effects. So we kicked it, with exception of dawn city and sponsored academies.



Can you give some examples of those cards and explain why you believe they are stronger? (in more specific terms)



I'll try to give you a few examples. I don't know all the names of venus cards.

Example 1: Acquired Company vs terraforming Contract.
Acquired company is one of the best cards you can get during early game. It is 3 income for 10(13). Terraforming contract will five you 4 income for 8(11) that is simply better. The requirement of 5 TF is a joke as you can easily do that in generation 2 or 3. Both cards can be profitable played until Generation 6. With discounts even later.

Example 2: Building industries vs [Card with requirements of 3 tags that gives 2 steel and costs around 5)
For one you need energy, which you can actually get the hard way if you decide it is worth it. So you pay a maximum of 20 (3+Energy+6), which will amortize in 5 rounds.
The requirements of that other card are (I think to remember) Earth, Jovian and Venus Tag. These Tags are on cards you usually want to play early anyway.
Earth: Acquired company, Sponsors, Earth Catapult, Pets, Lunar Beam etc
Jovian: Vesta Spaceport, IO Mining, Asteroid Mining
Venus:...
So Basically if you are not unlucky you can simply play 2 Steel production for 5+3, which will amortize in 2 generation.

Both Cards do not bring anything new. There was cash production before. There was steel production before. Now they do the same, just better. The only new thing was the floaters, and we simply did not consider them to improve anything.

Example 3: the microbes that create 3M per Microbe. On it's own this card would not be so bad. The cost is around 10, so it would be kind of like Acquired Company (just a far above average card). BUT, it is not on its own. I played one game where my partner had the Ultra cold Fungus combi with that card in Generation 1, and it was absolutely ridiculous. He Cashed in three times in the game for over 40M€.

Other cards I deemed wildly broken (during early game) are "remove floater for one income" and "remove floater for energy production"


I could go on and on about this. We spend over an hour talking and analyzing, so that would be far too much text for anyone to read. But if you want to test for yourself and don't have the all seeing eye of sauron Balanceron sauron You can do the following: (needs two copies of mars and one of Venus)

Play a regular game (try to play unbiased). In generation 4 or 5, take the Venus cards and their counterparts from the base game (most of them have something like a twin brother). Take two of those pairs, random, onto your hand so you have 4 like you would in a regular research phase. Then think which card you would rather pick. The card from the expansion, or the card from the original.


I find all three examples average cards. Let's start with Terraforming Contract. It requires 25 TR to play. You are correct that you could get there in generation 2 or 3, but only if you aim for it. Usually, TR is not the most efficient way of building your engine, so what do you sacrifice on your eager way to play this card? Probably more than you gain from it. Once played, it rewards the player after the third turn. Acquired company is a must-keep on your starting hand, this one isn't, unless you A) have a lot of good terraforming cards or B) are UNMI.

Next you mention Mining Quota. It is a very good card if you can manage to get the tags. All three tags are relatively rare (with Jovian being the rarest tag in the game). Jovian cards usually also have a lot of VP:s on them, making them suboptimal to play early on. If you DO have one of the Jovian cards you mention on your starting hand, then great. Just find a useful Earth card and a useful Venus card and do the math to see how much you wasted just to get this card going. Of course, with luck, you could get three profitable cards with these tags, and then you're all good! But that is just as circumstantial as other great combos in the base game. If you instead compare to Mine, the card which costs 4 (+3) in the base game and gives 1 steel production, you can see that this card carries a 6M€ "discount" which should be attributed to the requirement. You might think that is a tad much of a discount, but I am not convinced.

The third example was Sulphur-Eating Bacteria. Straight-forward, it will pay for itself in 4 generations. Three generations gathering microbes, fourth exchanging them for M€. It cannot be played until 6% Venus, which may be soon, but on the other hand may never happen at all. The problem with this card, in your example, is not itself, but its combination with Extreme-Cold Fungus, which can add 2 microbes to another card. But there are better uses for ECF with base game cards. Even the microbe cards increasing oxygen and temperature give better rewards than the 6M€ you get together with Sulphur-Eating Bacteria.

Basically, I think you've been star-struck by the new shiny cards in a way that clouds your judgement of them
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Marc Espie
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nightwishpower wrote:
I wanted to know if the expansion makes the game imbalanced if only 1 person choose to buy/use venus cards in the game in a multiplayer game(2 players) thank you very much


Any time you *choose* not to buy some cards, yep you're going to be at a disadvantage.

If you want to make a variant where a player completely avoids venus cards, and sees four "base game" cards per generation, still a bit.

Gets them out of competition for a goal and an award. It would be very easy for the other player to claim the "venus" award, for instance.
 
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Marc Espie
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I agree that Venus cards are slightly more powerful than the cards from the base game.

They have to be, otherwise solo mode would be unplayable, as you have an extra gauge to fill, with lots of steps, and the solar phase isn't quite enough.

The difference is very slim, though.

Also, there aren't that many Venus cards to begin with, so on average, you're better off playing the good cards you draw (stuff that fits with your current engine), regardless of where they come from.
 
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