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Subject: Compilations rss

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JMJimmy
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I'm curious as to why compilations are seemingly isolated from the rest of the series info about a game? ie: expansions tab is empty, no links between first edition and second editions of compilations (like Dominion Big Box vs Dominion Big Box Second Edition), etc.
 
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Jason Monroe
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I don't think compilations are isolated.

On the right hand side of the overview tab, it will say Contains and lists what is in that compilation. Each of those is a link to the entry for that item.

In addition, contains is under the More Tab->Linked items

Kingdom Builder Box Big does have a reimplementation link between it and Big Box 2nd edition as the 2nd one is everything the 1st one included plus additional content

However, I don't think a reimplementation link between Dominion Big Box and Dominion Big Box Second Edition makes sense because the 1st one is Base 1st edition, Alchemy, and Prosperity while the other is base 2nd edition and intrigue 2nd edition.

However, both big boxes are captured within Dominion

I think you will see start seeing more focus towards families especially for games with a lot of content

 
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Herb
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I think I can answer part of that. On "Dominion Big Box vs Dominion Big Box Second Edition"

BGG orginally just smashed all info about a game (and all its versions) into a single entry. Then along came versions after tens of thousands of games had been added to database. Then the powers to be decided that if a new version of the game was different enough (i.e. admin's gut instinct) then the new version should get new (separate) game entry rather than be just a version of the original entry.

Now since "Dominion Big Box Second Edition" is a new version of "Dominion Big Box" it seems to me that "Dominion Big Box Second Edition" should reimplement ""Dominion Big Box Second Edition".
 
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Herb
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Obviously the "reimplementation" link doesn't get unanimous approval.

Frankly BGG wasn't designed for the endless ways that games can be associated, so the admins end up making "judgement calls" that can't please everybody.

I'll point out that there was also the game Miscellaneous Game Compilation which was orginally added with notion of handling "boxed sets" of games. The notion was a game like backgammon and checkers set, or a "treasure chest" with 25 different games.
 
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Jason Monroe
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herace wrote:


Frankly BGG wasn't designed for the endless ways that games can be associated, so the admins end up making "judgement calls" that can't please everybody.


Very true.

I do think the use of reimplementation links has gotten away from its original intended use (from what I've been told).

As mentioned, I think the use of Families is better/cleaner

Unfortunately as of right now, there's no easy way to find all the ones that need to be corrected so we just fix them as we come across them or as they are submitted in the corrections queue.

herace wrote:

I'll point out that there was also the game Miscellaneous Game Compilation which was orginally added with notion of handling "boxed sets" of games. The notion was a game like backgammon and checkers set, or a "treasure chest" with 25 different games.


That's still being used, right? It shows 70+ versions under it.
But yes, that's they way I understood it too, mostly for compilation of public domain games like you mentioned.

Any game that is tagged as 'public domain' should no longer have any reimplementation links.
 
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Herb
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To me it is just weird to have a "second version" of a game that isn't reimplementing the "first version." The whole point of making the second version a new game instead of a new version is that there are "significant" differences to the first version.

Note that BGG isn't calling "Dominion Big Box Second Edition" a second edition. In fact "second edition" is on the box.
 
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JMJimmy
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Families actually doesn't quite work because it includes anything in the universe. So if you're trying to drill down on expansions related to the content included in a compilation, families would bring up stuff that didn't belong, like for Dominion it would include Nitroplus Card Masters which is a 're-imagining'.

I think the best way would be to simply have 'expansions' do query unique on anything included in the compilation. That way it pulls in anything potentially compatible rather than having to seek out each part individually and compare expansion lists.
 
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Herb
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JMJimmy wrote:
Families actually doesn't quite work because it includes anything in the universe. So if you're trying to drill down on expansions related to the content included in a compilation, families would bring up stuff that didn't belong, like for Dominion it would include Nitroplus Card Masters which is a 're-imagining'.

I think the best way would be to simply have 'expansions' do query unique on anything included in the compilation. That way it pulls in anything potentially compatible rather than having to seek out each part individually and compare expansion lists.


You have to realize that an "expansion" is another gimmick that BGG introduced. There wasn't a notion of expansions in the original BGG design.

That being said BGG admins (who have to approve all this nonsense...) flip-flop on the point if a "game" is what is the box, or is a "game" a distinct set of components and rules.

So I can play many games with a standard checkers set and board. Does that make all those games versions of checkers? Are they reimplementing checkers? Or are they just distinctly different games?

So to me:

* Dominion Big Box (English) would have been another Dominion game (new game not version of original game). It would have reimplemented Dominion and would have contained expansions for Alchemy and Prosperity.

* Dominion (Second Edition) Big Box would be a third Dominion game and which contained the second edition of Dominion and the second edition of Intrique and a set of extra player cards. The extra player cards would need to be in an expansion too. (Not sure if this set of cards was only availble in boxed set or if they could have been purchased separately...)

Not not being able to please everybody, someone will no doubt chirp in and explain shake why my reasoning won't work.

The thing I don't like about families in such situations is that there isn't a text explanation of why that particular game belongs to the family. This would be like the Description field in a geeklist.

Again with sets, promo cards, expansions, special mail in offers and so on, it just seems impossible for BGG to outthink how some game manufacturer is going to squeeze a game for another buck.
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Jason Monroe
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herace wrote:


So I can play many games with a standard checkers set and board. Does that make all those games versions of checkers? Are they reimplementing checkers? Or are they just distinctly different games?


Yup, it can be a headache especially since we often don't necessarily have all the information we need but generally speaking...

Let's say you have Super Mario Checkers which is checkers but with Super Mario characters, it's a version of checkers

A checkers game that has different rules/game play gets its own entry

Both are under Family: Checkers

And as mentioned above, there are currently no plans for anything to re-implement checkers (or any public domain game)

Of course, it's not always that clear cut but that's sort of what we are aiming for. Having said that, I'm sure there's plenty of examples of where a game got its own entry that probably is more of a version but a lot of that comes from versions being introduced many years after BGG was created
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JMJimmy
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This stuff is always hard to define explicitly so that everyone has a clear understanding of what goes where. There will always be opinions and oddities.

The system is very thorough which is great. There's just a few things that seem to overlap in strange ways, like "Integrates With" vs "Expansion" and "Reimplements" vs "Version". Either way, the dataset is awesome to play in.
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Jason Monroe
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JMJimmy wrote:
This stuff is always hard to define explicitly so that everyone has a clear understanding of what goes where. There will always be opinions and oddities.

The system is very thorough which is great. There's just a few things that seem to overlap in strange ways, like "Integrates With" vs "Expansion" and "Reimplements" vs "Version". Either way, the dataset is awesome to play in.


Integrates vs Expansion:
A stand alone game = integrates, otherwise = expansion

As I alluded to earlier, I think reimplements is confusing because it gotten out of hand and used in ways it was not intended. Hopefully as time goes on, we can clean that up

FYI: This page may or may not clear up some things. XIV relates to compilation items

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/When_to_make_a_new_entry
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JMJimmy
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belial1134 wrote:
FYI: This page may or may not clear up some things. XIV relates to compilation items

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/When_to_make_a_new_entry


This explains things nicely. Personally I think, within the system that exists, it makes more sense to have compilations of content as 'Versions' instead of individual titles ie:

Dominion Big Box (English) -> would be a version under Dominion, Dominion: Prosperity, and Dominion: Alchemy

while

Dominion (Second Edition) Big Box would be a version under Dominion (Second Edition) and Dominion: Intrigue (Second Edition)

It would be a lot cleaner, keeps expansions tabs accurate, doesn't dilute voting on what is the same content as the individually purchased versions, etc. Edit: Though I'm not sure if the system permits multiple version association... if it did it would also solve your Miscellaneous Game Compilation issue

Edit 2: For clarity, compilations like

would become a version under Chess, Checkers, and Backgammon and Miscellaneous Game Compilation would be deleted

If there was unique gameplay content that only came with the compilation, then it would make sense to create a new title. Since gameplay is changed from what you can buy individually, voting would need to be different, expansion compatibility could (theoretically) be different, etc.

Just a thought (if you can't tell I'm a web dev so this stuff gets my gears turning )
 
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One box should have one version. A big box should not have versions under multiple smaller games. Dominion Big Box is not a version of any of those smaller games. Also, duplicate images would be confusing, as would trying to figure out ownership (and with ownership, stats on trading, etc).
 
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Herb
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Well, no matter how you do it, you'll eventually get into trouble and rationalize some work around to fit in the existing system.

One thing that we haven't mentioned is that many games come with several rules sets. So the "basic" game and the "advanced" game. With game being a set of components and rules, then there should be two BGG entries for the boxed set. gulp

A number of users have commented that versions should be more powerful. So for instance the artist should be on the version since artists have changed between versions. Also the rules should be associated with a particular version. Some games have been invented multiple times, so perhaps designer should be an option for a version too.

A rub here for compilations is that for the three games Chess, Checkers, and Backgammon you can create 7 entries if you do combinations as a different game. So it would be nice to have a version be able to contain other games. That way the particular Checkers and Backgammon set is both under Checkers and under Backgammon.
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There is a spot for artists on a version.
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indigopotter wrote:
There is a spot for artists on a version.


Thanks. Forgot that.
 
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JMJimmy
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indigopotter wrote:
One box should have one version. A big box should not have versions under multiple smaller games. Dominion Big Box is not a version of any of those smaller games. Also, duplicate images would be confusing, as would trying to figure out ownership (and with ownership, stats on trading, etc).


Is it much different than the 3 in 1 lumped in under the misc. title? The contents are the same in the Big Box as the main game + 2 expansions, just the presentation is different, much like 3 in 1 is the same content as Chess/Checkers/Backgammon with a different presentation.

The duplicate image issue is easily solved in that you only display the image of the version owned. ie: if Big Box is selected as the version then the image displayed is the Big Box image. Think of it like 'Dominion' is the default that only gets overridden if the version owned has specific info that changes.

I'm currently avoiding cleaning so I did a quick diagram to get my thoughts out


Terms:
Editions & "Collectors" = A new edition, gameplay changing content not available for purchase individually, or a theme change (new instance of "Game" but must be a 'reimplementation')
Expansion = Any expansion, stand alone or not
Integrates (not shown) = A flag for expansions that can integrate into the main game and/or another expansion
Version = Anything that is cosmetically different (short of a reimplementation), compilations of individual content, languages, etc.


To me that handles everything in a much cleaner & intuitive way within the structure that already exists.

Anyway, this has gone way further than I intended, I was just trying to understand how things were structured and came across a lot of inconsistencies - I didn't mean to stir things up

 
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A big box is not a version of Prosperity. There are game play differences (the other games/expansions).

If you put a wrong "version" in 3 places, people will upload to those 3 places, creating duplicate images.

If you put a wrong "version" in 3 places, then you have 3 places for people to mark as owned/trade/want in trade/wishlist.

Expansions are not stand-alone. Integrates with is for stand-alone games that can be combined. Expansions are not ranked. "Integrates with" can be ranked.

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