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Subject: Galloway rss

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Andreas Brueckner
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Should Galloway be rather a part of Scotland?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galloway.

Also this would allow a more concise writing of the Brigantes submission to the Angles rule

Instead of
"They may only submit to the Angles if in Scotland, but also including the area of Galloway"

simply

"They may only submit to the Angles if in Scotland"

Is there any reason why Galloway should be part of England in the game?
 
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Stuart Holttum
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millenium_baby wrote:

Is there any reason why Galloway should be part of England in the game?


Possibly because that same Wikipedia article also notes that Galloway was NOT part of Scotland for most of the period covered by the game?
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Andreas Brueckner
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Stu Holttum wrote:
that same Wikipedia article also notes that Galloway was NOT part of Scotland for most of the period covered by the game?


Not sure "most of the period covered by the game" would put it into a region called "England" cool

From the article it seems that it was under English dominance between the late 7th and the 9th century - 3 out of 11 centuries covered by Britannia - in game turns roughly round IX to XII - 4 rounds out of 16.

Now one could consider what kind of role the regions play in the game.
They play a role when deciding Bretwalda and King - which take place from round VIII.

And they are used in the Brigantes submission rule (needing an exception).

I might be missing some though.

No big thing really, but for me, Scotland seems the more logical region.
 
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Stuart Holttum
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millenium_baby wrote:

From the article it seems that it was under English dominance between the late 7th and the 9th century - 3 out of 11 centuries covered by Britannia - in game turns roughly round IX to XII - 4 rounds out of 16.

Now one could consider what kind of role the regions play in the game.
They play a role when deciding Bretwalda and King - which take place from round VIII.


Well, quite. For most of the game, whether Galloway is "Scotland" or "England" is irrelevant.....apart from the turns where it is counted as part of England for the Kingship. Certainly since there was nothing really recognisable as "Scotland" until well after the scope of the game (as opposed to "the hilly bit in the North of the British Isles"), having Galloway as part of "the flatter southern part of the British Isles" makes more (somewhat) more sense.

Given the scope of the game, there is indeed an argument that neither "England" nor "Scotland" are appropriate titles for the northern and southern areas. But given that for the the majority of the gamespan, Galloway was more under the sway of "the south" than "the north", if it has to be one or the other then "England" makes the more sense.
 
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Ryan Keane
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The "period covered by the game" argument doesn't really help. The Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were not unified as a Kingdom of England until the 10th century, and the Kingdom of Scotland/Alba did not expand to encompass all of the northern and southern modern-day Scotland until after the period the game covers.

I think a good argument can be made to put the Scotland/England red line where Hadrian's Wall is, representing a distinct border set by the Romans by the period covered in round 1. This would put Galloway in "Scotland", but would require moving Lothian's southern border north. Lothian technically should probably be shifted north anyway (Lothian and Dun Eidann basically refer to the same area, a problem in the area naming). The Dane restriction of landing south of Lothian is another reason to move the line south.

Another argument could be made that the red line should be moved north to where Antonine's Wall was, a more temporary Roman border but also more indicative to how far north the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms reached at their zenith. This would put Strathclyde in England, and require shifting Dunedin's southern border north.

I don't know if the Brigante submmission rules are a good reason to adjust the border. Those submission rules are just confusingly designed in my opinion in the first place. Brigantes are highly incentivized to retreat to Strathclyde and Galloway and submit if they are in trouble. Those are easily the best areas to control to try to maintain occupation of Strathclyde as long as possible. They don't need a rule against other English areas from submitting to prevent them from doing that. I don't know, maybe there were some playtest games where the Brigantes went south and created a DMZ between Angles and Saxons? Not sure if that would be a VP benefit for Red. Although it would be interesting to see Red try that, if the rules allowed.

I like that England has an even number of areas for Bretwalda voting, so I would prefer to leave as is or move the border to include Galloway AND Lothian in Scotland, so English areas go to 18, not 19.
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Ryan Keane
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From a language/genetic perspective, it does make sense to make just Galloway as part of Scotland, since it remained Brythonic/Gaelic-speaking through the period of the game while the Scottish southeast lowland in the area of "Lothian" were all English-speaking by mid-game or so.

This language/genetic perspective is also the best historical argument for why Cornwall/Devon get to be part of Wales, although game-wise, it also makes it more interesting that they are Wales.
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