Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
25 Posts

Pandemic Legacy: Season 2» Forums » Rules

Subject: Cairo Recon Spoiler rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Volker Bache
Germany
Bonn
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello,

We wonder whether Cornered gives you a scar if you are moved by someone else on their turn.

Best regards
Enas
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ray Taylor
Scotland
Old Woking
Surrey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Middle East Recon Spoiler
Spoiler (click to reveal)
It says....

Your character gets exposed when your pawn leaves a location containing 1 or more hollow men.

So we played it that however your pawn leaves a city you got exposed.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Volker Bache
Germany
Bonn
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quilzar wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Middel East Recon Spoiler
Spoiler (click to reveal)
It says....

Your character gets exposed when your pawn leaves a location containing 1 or more hollow men.

So we played it that however your pawn leaves a city you got exposed.


True. What confuses us is that it is in the rulebook under Actions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ray Taylor
Scotland
Old Woking
Surrey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sure but all movement is an action right? apart from Airlift I guess.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McGeehin
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mb
Spoiler (click to reveal)
It triggers when the pawn leaves a city. It does not specify whether or not you spend an action to do so.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
offthetrailsonacrazytank
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
87654321cba
badge
what's an overtext ?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Yes, but the rule is under “Movement actions” specifically, which includes Drive/Ferry, Sail, Charter Boat and (Europe spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Shuttle Flight.
I think Administrator and Coordinator are special actions, falling under “Using Abilities” on page 17...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
offthetrailsonacrazytank
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
87654321cba
badge
what's an overtext ?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Furthermore, this “Cornered !” rule is included in the main section named “On Your Turn”. So it seems to say : “On YOUR turn, YOUR character gets exposed when YOUR pawn leaves a location containing 1 or more Hollow Men figures.” But if it leaves during another player’s turn, then the rule don’t apply...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Lennert
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it is a stretch to suppose that the plain meaning of a rule is limited by what page of the rulebook it appears on, especially when you are considering how it interacts with special abilities.

If there was an ability that said something like "If the infection card for your current city is drawn, you may immediately perform a Drive/Ferry action before it is resolved," I don't think anyone would say "But the rules for Drive/Ferry are inside the '4 actions step' section of the rulebook, so they don't apply to this ability that happens during the infection step."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ray Taylor
Scotland
Old Woking
Surrey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
metalguisolid wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Furthermore, this “Cornered !” rule is included in the main section named “On Your Turn”. So it seems to say : “On YOUR turn, YOUR character gets exposed when YOUR pawn leaves a location containing 1 or more Hollow Men figures.” But if it leaves during another player’s turn, then the rule don’t apply...

I think that is a massive stretch.

Cario Recon Spoiler
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Cornered says...

"Your character gets exposed when your pawn leaves a location containing a 1 or more Hollow Men figures"

It seems very cut and dry to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
offthetrailsonacrazytank
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
87654321cba
badge
what's an overtext ?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I don't think this is a stretch at all. IMO both interpretations are possible 50/50. Everything under the "On your Turn" banner effectively happens on your turn only. You can't completely ignore sections and divisions in a rulebook and also the context of a sentence. If it happens to any pawn whoever turn it is, then it would say : "A character gets exposed when it's pawn leaves a location containing 1 or more Hollow Men figures."


(Edited out useless reference snore)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
offthetrailsonacrazytank
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
87654321cba
badge
what's an overtext ?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Spoiler (click to reveal)
But also there's a couple of new rules in step one of setup that both begins with "During setup,...". So if my interpretation was right, maybe the Cornered ! rule would begin with "On your turn,...
So maybe you're right...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ray Taylor
Scotland
Old Woking
Surrey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
metalguisolid wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I don't think this is a stretch at all. IMO both interpretations are possible 50/50. Everything under the "On your Turn" banner effectively happens on your turn only. You can't completely ignore sections and divisions in a rulebook and also the context of a sentence. If it happens to any pawn whoever turn it is, then it would say : "A character gets exposed when it's pawn leaves a location containing 1 or more Hollow Men figures."
For example, here's a bible quote : "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."
One could say "It seems very cut and dry to me, this book is all about dominating women in all cases..."

Not sure what this has to do with anything!

If there was an ability on a card that said "after an epidemic, you get to do a free deliver action", would you think you could only do it on your turn because deliver is listed under "actions you can do on your turn"?

I personally think it is very cut and dry, you are completely entitled to play your game however you want, but I think that it is a massive stretch.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
offthetrailsonacrazytank
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
87654321cba
badge
what's an overtext ?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I never understood this argument. If i wanted to play the game my way instead of THE way, why would i bother posting on this forum ? I think you've already played your game your way, and maybe you want your interpretation to be true at all costs, or you would have to admit that your campaign was not following the rules. Unlike you, i say that both interpretations are equally possible. Yours can be seen as a stretch too.

Quote:
If there was an ability on a card that said "after an epidemic, you get to do a free deliver action", would you think you could only do it on your turn because deliver is listed under "actions you can do on your turn"?
If a card say do something, then it trumps the usual rules anyway. That argument as nothing to do with the question either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ray Taylor
Scotland
Old Woking
Surrey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
metalguisolid wrote:
I never understood this argument. If i wanted to play the game my way instead of THE way, why would i bother posting on this forum ? I think you've already played your game your way, and maybe you want your interpretation to be true at all costs, or you would have to admit that your campaign was not following the rules. Unlike you, i say that both interpretations are equally possible. Yours can be seen as a stretch too.

Quote:
If there was an ability on a card that said "after an epidemic, you get to do a free deliver action", would you think you could only do it on your turn because deliver is listed under "actions you can do on your turn"?
If a card say do something, then it trumps the usual rules anyway. That argument as nothing to do with the question either.

I would always air on the side of caution and do the thing that made the game harder not easier, as I would hate to find out we made the game easier later on, again that is just me and my opinion though.

I stand by my statement that I think it is very cut and dry to me, the rule is very clear to me, anyone else is 100% entitled to their opinion (I just do not agree with it).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Lennert
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
metalguisolid wrote:
Quote:
If there was an ability on a card that said "after an epidemic, you get to do a free deliver action", would you think you could only do it on your turn because deliver is listed under "actions you can do on your turn"?
If a card say do something, then it trumps the usual rules anyway. That argument as nothing to do with the question either.

I think you are missing the point of the example. Cards trump the usual rules, and so there is no question that the ability works outside your turn.

But what does it do when you use it outside your turn? It does a "Deliver Supplies action". What does that mean? The card doesn't include the rules for that action. The only way you can actually understand the ability well enough to resolve it is if you apply the rules from the rulebook for the "Deliver Supplies" action.

In order to apply those rules, you need to make the leap that the rules for "Deliver Supplies" apply to any "Deliver Supplies" action, regardless of whether it happens during the action phase of your turn or not. So you would be implicitly admitting that the rules inside that section still apply when you leave that section if a special ability makes them relevant.


Similarly, if you are not using special abilities, then the only way you can leave a location is during the action phase of your own turn. But if a special ability makes it possible to leave the location at some other time, it makes sense that all of the "when you leave a location" rules would still apply, even if they are listed (for organization) in the section for your turn.

If there were no special abilities, then the question wouldn't come up (just like it would never come up "what happens if you do a Deliver Supplies action outside of your turn"). But special abilities often cause rules to apply in a new context.



One might also consider the fact that pretty much the whole rulebook is organized based on sequence of play, so there is no obvious better spot to put a rule that applies during other players' turns. (There is an "exposure" section, but it deals only with the results of exposure--it does not explain any causes of exposure inside of the section.) So even presuming the designers are sympathetic towards your reasoning, it's not obvious what they would have done differently to make it clear that this rule applies when someone else moves you.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
offthetrailsonacrazytank
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
87654321cba
badge
what's an overtext ?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ok, if you agree that we both have an opinion on this ruling that could be the developer's intended way, then fine by me. It just seemed at first that you were 100% convinced that you hold the only and obvious truth.

My point is :
Every rule included in the Setup section only applies during setup, all the rules included in the On your Turn section specifically describes what happens on your turn, same thing for every section in this rule book. Why would it be different for only this rule ?

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I say it's in the "On your turn" section, under movement actions, so it means : "On your turn, during Movement Actions, your character gets exposed when your pawn leaves a location containing 1 or more Hollow Men figures."
Seems pretty clear cut and dry to me.

Saying that you can take a rule clearly placed in a specific section, just read it by itself ignoring everything else around, is a major stretch. Why bother dividing the rules in sections at all if you are right ?

If you are, they could have worded the rule like this :
Spoiler (click to reveal)
"At any moment, even during another player's turn, a character gets exposed when it's pawn leaves for any reason a location containing 1 or more Hollow men figures."


Quote:
If there were no special abilities, then the question wouldn't come up (just like it would never come up "what happens if you do a Deliver Supplies action outside of your turn"). But special abilities often cause rules to apply in a new context.
Exactly. Special abilities are like cards, they trump the usual rules too. I'm only talking about written rules in the book here.

Quote:
I would always air on the side of caution and do the thing that made the game harder not easier, as I would hate to find out we made the game easier later on...
That's actually a really good point. If i can't get any official answer for this, maybe I'll play your way just because I won my 3 last games.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Byron S
United States
Ventura
California
flag msg tools
I don't remember what I ate last night
badge
but I can spout off obscure rules to all sorts of games like nobody's business!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've found that the developers are very careful with their wording, and you should go with exactly what the rule says, and not infer additional wording. It doesn't say "on your turn", therefore it always applies.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
offthetrailsonacrazytank
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
87654321cba
badge
what's an overtext ?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
But it says "on your turn" at the top of the page in big letters...it's the title of the whole section. Everything in it should concerns what happens "on your turn"...Not inferring anything, just reading. Can't believe that the title of something doesn't mean anything in your minds.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
offthetrailsonacrazytank
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
87654321cba
badge
what's an overtext ?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And i think you are inferring words here. It doesn't say "anytime" or "on any player's turn". It does say "on your turn" though. (top of the page)

Then again, i also think that i may be totally wrong and the developers think like you and don't consider titles important either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Stamp
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The hollow men sticker on the board does not have any restrictions mentioned so would apply at any time.
It has similar wording, in that it talks about moving the pawn, to (December spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
carrier scar which is accepted that the administrator can’t move the carrier


You have a point about where the sticker is in the rule book, it should probably be somewhere on page 16 but I think the sticker on the board overrides it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
offthetrailsonacrazytank
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
87654321cba
badge
what's an overtext ?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
The hollow men sticker on the board does not have any restrictions mentioned so would apply at any time.

Wow...haha great argument ! I didn't even thought about looking on the freaking board...thanks mate now i'm pretty sure i'm wrong.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Márton Molnár
Hungary
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
+1 on "designers are very careful with their wording": the card doesn't say "when you move away", but "when your pawn leaves", therefore we also think that this is applicable when the Administrator moves you.

But I agree some clarification would be welcome, especially since in Season 1, concerning a similar case,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
it was clarified that when the Dispatcher moves someone, it's the Dispatchers abilities that count, not those of the player being moved, which makes a huge difference e.g. with Paramilitary Escort.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
molnarm wrote:
+1 on "designers are very careful with their wording": the card doesn't say "when you move away", but "when your pawn leaves", therefore we also think that this is applicable when the Administrator moves you.

But I agree some clarification would be welcome, especially since in Season 1, concerning a similar case,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
it was clarified that when the Dispatcher moves someone, it's the Dispatchers abilities that count, not those of the player being moved, which makes a huge difference e.g. with Paramilitary Escort.


In Season 1, the Dispatcher itself explicitly says that you use the Dispatcher's scars and abilities when using that ability of the Dispatcher to move pieces around. The Administrator has no such clause, so there's no reason to think the ruling would apply.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
a porkupine
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BUMP.

Do we have a ruling from the developer on this yet?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kat Figueroa
United States
California
flag msg tools
Same question here. Clarification from a designer would be very helpful.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.