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Pandemic Legacy: Season 2» Forums » Rules

Subject: End Of April Question - Spoilers rss

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Ray Taylor
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Broken link infection card upgrade reads....

After discarding this card, any player may discard a Player card to stop drawing infection cards for the rest of this turn.

Discarding cards can often be very helpful for getting the right card to the right people, can you discard a card even if you would not draw another infection card?

To be on the safe side, we have played no we could not, but we are still pretty unsure (we are in August now...)
 
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al Cann
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Intuitively, I would say no. It does say a player may, " ...
Spoiler (click to reveal)
discard a player card to stop drawing infection cards for the rest of the turn." My emphasis.


So I think you did it correctly.

 
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Robert Stewart
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My intuition's the reverse - you can stop drawing infection cards for the rest of the turn just fine - it just doesn't make any practical difference - just like you can discard Washington to move from Washington to New York by charter even though you could sail it just fine without the discard.
 
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al Cann
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rmsgrey wrote:
My intuition's the reverse - you can stop drawing infection cards for the rest of the turn just fine - it just doesn't make any practical difference - just like you can discard Washington to move from Washington to New York by charter even though you could sail it just fine without the discard.


Your counterexample is still a legal move, however. But in the example provided by the op
Spoiler (click to reveal)
... one cannot discard a player card to stop drawing infection cards for the rest of the turn if there are no more infection cards left to draw on that turn.


I think the OP played it right.

 
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Robert Stewart
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albcann wrote:
in the example provided by the op
Spoiler (click to reveal)
... one cannot discard a player card to stop drawing infection cards for the rest of the turn if there are no more infection cards left to draw on that turn.


Why not? If I can add 0 to a number, why can't I stop doing something I was done doing for the turn anyway?
 
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al Cann
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rmsgrey wrote:
albcann wrote:
in the example provided by the op
Spoiler (click to reveal)
... one cannot discard a player card to stop drawing infection cards for the rest of the turn if there are no more infection cards left to draw on that turn.


Why not? If I can add 0 to a number, why can't I stop doing something I was done doing for the turn anyway?


Because the Broken Link card says that a Player card may be discarded, " to stop drawing infection cards ..." .

If the trigger to playing a card is to stop something from happening, and that something is already stopped, the trigger no longer exists.

Sorry ... I stand by my interpretation. Love to hear someone else chime in here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see it.


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Robert Stewart
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albcann wrote:
If the trigger to playing a card is to stop something from happening, and that something is already stopped, the trigger no longer exists.


Surely the trigger is drawing the card, while stopping drawing is the effect.
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al Cann
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rmsgrey wrote:
albcann wrote:
If the trigger to playing a card is to stop something from happening, and that something is already stopped, the trigger no longer exists.


Surely the trigger is drawing the card, while stopping drawing is the effect.


Try as I might ... I have no clue what your argument is.

You simply cannot play a card unless playing the card is for the purpose of stopping the further draw of infection cards. That is what the the Broken Link rule says. Any other interpretation of that rule is rules lawyering, manipulating the rules to achieve your desired result.

It is your game, play it however you wish, but I feel your interpretation to be incorrect.
 
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Jeff Hannes
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rmsgrey wrote:

Why not? If I can add 0 to a number, why can't I stop doing something I was done doing for the turn anyway?


Actually, you just made your own argument. In Pandemic Legacy Season 2, you may NOT simply add 0 to a number. You cannot use the Deliver Supplies action and deliver 0 cubes. You cannot discard a card for a Charter action and move 0 spaces.

For the same reason

Spoiler (click to reveal)
You cannot use Broken Link to stop drawing 0 additional cards.


The rules are clear, but even if they weren't, one need only look at designer intent... The designers don't want you wasting an action or card when there is no effect attached; in order to earn any advantage (in this case getting a desired card into the discard pile), you need to be doing something to alter the game state. There are no freebies in Pandemic Legacy because...well... that was the designers' decision.

Other games like Magic: The Gathering rely on the rules of math and have no restriction on doing something for no reason. Pandemic Legacy specifically does NOT have that allowance, and the rules even go so far to state as such.
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Robert Stewart
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"After discarding this card" - trigger - "any player may discard a Player card" - cost - "to stop drawing Infection cards for the rest of this turn." - effect - "(This has no effect during setup and epidemics)" - clarification.

(Also, the rulebook's language is inconsistent - it tells you to flip over the top however many cards from the infection deck, one at a time, infecting the corresponding city - and then infecting a city involves discarding the infection card. But discussing what to do if the Infection deck runs out refers to the process as drawing cards)

If you tried programming a computer to let you play, then there would be a window of opportunity to discard a card to stop drawing infection cards after discarding the last infection card unless code was added to treat it as a special case...


If a teacher tells a student to stop running indoors just as the student slows to a walk, isn't the student obeying the teacher?
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Ray Taylor
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I think the point (and this is how we felt about it as well) is you can't do an action for no effect.

For example, you can't discard a card to sail to a city and not sail to it.

Flipping it around, in your example, because there is no effect you are not allowed to pay the cost, even though the trigger has happened.

I am interested in what Matt and Rob's thoughts on it are though as it is clearly not cut and dry
 
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Eoin R
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I agree that being able to use it to stop drawing zero cards is against the spirit of the thing, but I agree with Robert that it is definitely not against the letter of the rules.

The ability to use the trigger is unrelated to whether the effect resolves or not, and I don't think it is at all a stretch or 'rules lawyering' to interpret it like this. That said, it would be good to have an official ruling on this, even if it is one that I would disagree with!
 
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al Cann
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Penguinton wrote:
I agree that being able to use it to stop drawing zero cards is against the spirit of the thing, but I agree with Robert that it is definitely not against the letter of the rules.

The ability to use the trigger is unrelated to whether the effect resolves or not, and I don't think it is at all a stretch or 'rules lawyering' to interpret it like this. That said, it would be good to have an official ruling on this, even if it is one that I would disagree with!


I'm trying not to be dense here ... but the Broken Link Card says, "After discarding this card, any player may discard a Player card to stop drawing infection cards for the rest of this turn." Emphasis mine.

Broken link does not say, "After discarding this card, any player may discard a player card." It is only that that any player may discard a player card ... ... to stop drawing infection cards. Again, my emphasis.

I don't see, or understand, any of the rules lawyering arguments here.

But I am trying to see the other side. Are those disagreeing with my interpretation saying that, for instance, "In case of fire, break glass", even though the fire is out, the glass could still be broken? Do I have it right?

Again, not being snarky, I just don't understand the other side of this argument.
 
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Eoin R
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The first line of Robert's last reply is the best way to look at this, I reckon; splitting the text into trigger/cost/effect components. The game doesn't know or care how many infection cards are left to draw when you activate the trigger and pay the cost. You just stop drawing infection cards whether there are 4 more or 0 more.

Not quite sure how to apply your fire/glass metaphor to this, since games run on a more strict logic than real life. To riff on it a bit, I suppose you would say 'the fire brigade would be unhappy if you broke the glass after the fire was out', but I can't say the designers/Gamea, god of board games would be unhappy if we activated Broken Link with no infection cards left to draw.

(Not to be facetious, but against the examples other people are giving about not being able to move to your current location with Charter or being unable to waste an action by using Deliver Supplies to deliver 0 cubes, I don't see anything in the rules that prevents either of these cases this...)
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Jeremy Lennert
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I don't have the rulebook handy at the moment, but I seem to recall reading a rule that you were not allowed to use a card for no effect; for instance, that you couldn't play a card to produce 0 supplies. That is different from what I would have assumed in the absence of a specific rule, but if there is a rule, that would seem to prevent you from using Broken Link purely to discard a card.

albcann wrote:
Again, not being snarky, I just don't understand the other side of this argument.

Imagine you are walking down the street and you see two shops. In one shop, you can buy a candy for $1. In the second shop, you can buy the same candy for $2. Most people are not going to buy from the second shop, because they'd rather spend less money than more. But if, for some reason, you wanted to buy that candy for $2 instead of $1, you could. The existence of the first shop doesn't prevent you from using the second shop.

Even if the first shop is giving away the candy for free, you could still go to the second shop and pay $2 for the same candy if you wanted. The "better" offer may change whether you want to take the "worse" one, but it doesn't change whether you can take it.

Normally, if a game says "you can do X to do Y", and you fully follow the instructions for both X and Y, I would regard that as legal. The fact that Y might have happened even if you hadn't done X does not enter into it.

(But, again, I seem to recall that this particular game--Pandemic Legacy Season 2--has a special, exceptional rule that changes how this works. I will check when I get home.)
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Eoin R
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Your post inspired me to check the rules, and it does state on page 17 that:

Quote:
You must be able to use all of an ability in order to activate it. This is true whether it is on a card or a character. For example, if you had a card that let you add supplies to the board and there were no supplies in the stockpile, you couldn’t play that card to put 0 supplies on to the board just to be able to discard that card.


This does indeed change my opinion on the situation, as it seems entirely analogous to the example given in the rule. Thanks!
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al Cann
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Penguinton wrote:
The first line of Robert's last reply is the best way to look at this, I reckon; splitting the text into trigger/cost/effect components. The game doesn't know or care how many infection cards are left to draw when you activate the trigger and pay the cost. You just stop drawing infection cards whether there are 4 more or 0 more.


Ok, I see it now ... Robert is tying the discarding of a player card to the action of discarding the Broken Link infection card whereas I am tying the discarding of the player card to stopping the draw of infection cards. In my view you cannot discard the player card if that action can not prevent the drawing of any more infection cards because there are none left to draw on the turn.

Thank you ... and thank you Jeremy as well.

I still think Robert's interpretation is "rules lawyering" because I cannot believe that he, or anyone else, actually feels that his interpretation is what the designers intended, despite the fact that, by the letter of the law, the argument can be made.
 
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al Cann
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Penguinton wrote:
Your post inspired me to check the rules, and it does state on page 17 that:

Quote:
You must be able to use all of an ability in order to activate it. This is true whether it is on a card or a character. For example, if you had a card that let you add supplies to the board and there were no supplies in the stockpile, you couldn’t play that card to put 0 supplies on to the board just to be able to discard that card.


This does indeed change my opinion on the situation, as it seems entirely analogous to the example given in the rule. Thanks!


And this completely settles the argument.
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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Penguinton wrote:
Your post inspired me to check the rules, and it does state on page 17 that:

Quote:
You must be able to use all of an ability in order to activate it. This is true whether it is on a card or a character. For example, if you had a card that let you add supplies to the board and there were no supplies in the stockpile, you couldn’t play that card to put 0 supplies on to the board just to be able to discard that card.


This does indeed change my opinion on the situation, as it seems entirely analogous to the example given in the rule. Thanks!

Note, however, that the rules also say that you can do the Produce Supplies action even if there aren't enough supply cubes in the stockpile to completely fill the location, which kind of seems to contradict the "must be able to use all of an ability" principle.

Games are allowed to have exceptions to their rules, of course, but...a highly unusual rule, accompanied by a single, brief, misleading example, in a game where secret rules are revealed gradually...I find it very worrying.
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Robert Stewart
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albcann wrote:
I still think Robert's interpretation is "rules lawyering" because I cannot believe that he, or anyone else, actually feels that his interpretation is what the designers intended, despite the fact that, by the letter of the law, the argument can be made.


I don't know Rob or Matt well enough to guess their intention here. I have known game designers who absolutely would have intended this interpretation as valid, designers who wouldn't have anticipated it, but would accept it as valid once pointed out, and designers who would say that you shouldn't be able to do it.

It's pretty niche that you'd have a card you want to discard, no better way of discarding it, and a Broken Link comes up on the last card of an infection step, and the benefit is also fairly small - it potentially lets you get a card into the Broker's hand without having to meet them - so it's not exactly game-breaking either way...
 
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