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Twilight Imperium (Fourth Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Saar's Space dock vs PDS rss

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Luke Nguyen
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Hello Geeks,

I have a scenario that needs some clarifications.

- Will PDSs fire at Saar's space dock when it moves alone (or carries some infantries) into the active system ?

- Can Saar's Space dock take damage during a space combat ?

I'm sorry if this question was asked before.

Thank you very much.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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No. Space docks cannot have hits applied to them.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I'm not sure it's that cut and dry. The appropriate text from the unit is:

"This unit can move and retreat as if it were a ship."

Space Cannon Offense is triggered during the Movement Step, so it is arguable that it should be considered a ship for all purposes within this step.

The timing is also specifically after the Move Ships substep of the Movement Step so it is arguably not still a ship during Space Cannon Offense.

Do we have an official ruling on this one?
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Christopher Halbower
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I’m 100% certain the ruling is what I stated. The alternative is that you can apply hits to Saar space docks during PDS fire but not during combat. And that’s definitely not the intent.
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Riku Koskinen
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66.5 STEP 2 — The active player must choose and destroy one of his ships in the active system for each hit result produced (by space cannon fire -Padish) against his units.

"This unit can move and retreat as if it were a ship" does not mean that it counts as a ship at other times. So it cannot be chosen to be destroyed because of space cannon fire.
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Clayton Threadgill
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Clipper wrote:
I'm not sure it's that cut and dry. The appropriate text from the unit is:

"This unit can move and retreat as if it were a ship."

Space Cannon Offense is triggered during the Movement Step, so it is arguable that it should be considered a ship for all purposes within this step.

The timing is also specifically after the Move Ships substep of the Movement Step so it is arguably not still a ship during Space Cannon Offense.

Do we have an official ruling on this one?

If that were the case, then the unit would say so. "This unit can move and retreat and be assigned hits as if it were a ship." Or possibly "During the movement step, treat this unit as a ship for all purposes."

But it doesn't say that; it says exactly what it means.

A good rule of thumb to follow for any board game with modular rules - a new effect only breaks as many rules as it needs to make the effect work, and no more.
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Gandalf the Greyjoy
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So it triggers PDS fire when moved (treated as a ship when moving), but PDS cannot assign hits to it?
 
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Steve Williams
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So it would seem. But unless you had other units with it, triggering PDS fire is meaningless, and if they do have units, those would trigger it anyway.

But if Joe wants to roll PDS dice to fire at nothing in this rare scenario, I say let him. Pew pew!
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Riku Koskinen
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Libero03 wrote:
So it triggers PDS fire when moved (treated as a ship when moving), but PDS cannot assign hits to it?


PDS fire happens in (or with deep space cannon, into) activated system even if no ships/space docks move. It's part of a tactical action. It's just not useful unless the active player had already ships present in the activated system.

If you activate a system that has one of your cruisers, and move your Saar dock there, eligible enemy PDS's can fire and assign hits to the Cruiser. This would be true also if you did not move your space dock there.
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Gandalf the Greyjoy
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Hmm... now when I think about it PDS fire is not triggered by move itself. It is just a step of a tactical action, so activating a system causes PDS fire. Is it correct?

EDIT: you were faster cool
 
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Christopher Halbower
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Libero03 wrote:
Hmm... now when I think about it PDS fire is not triggered by move itself. It is just a step of a tactical action, so activating a system causes PDS fire. Is it correct?


Yes.

For example, you could have some ships in a system. I activate the system. I move no ships. Then my PDS’s fire, destroying some of your ships.
 
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Hmm... this is going to cause some weird shenanigans. I understand the ruling, and makes total sense when Saar spacedocks were able to move and not produce in the same action, but from what I understand now they can move/produce at will.

So: Saar activates a system next to opponent pds, moves lone spacedock into system triggering pds fire. No ship are present so no hits are taken. Then Saar finishes action by bulding a fleet in the system.

Yikes!
 
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Lowecore wrote:
Hmm... this is going to cause some weird shenanigans. I understand the ruling, and makes total sense when Saar spacedocks were able to move and not produce in the same action, but from what I understand now they can move/produce at will.

So: Saar activates a system next to opponent pds, moves lone spacedock into system triggering pds fire. No ship are present so no hits are taken. Then Saar finishes action by bulding a fleet in the system.

Yikes!


I don't think this this qualifies as shenanigans, it's just Saar being Saar. These type of deep interactions that emerge out of straightforward mechanical combinations are a big part of what make the racial abilities in TI terrific.
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Bill Koens
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Jimb0v wrote:
I don't think this this qualifies as shenanigans, it's just Saar being Saar. These type of deep interactions that emerge out of straightforward mechanical combinations are a big part of what make the racial abilities in TI terrific.

+1 for this. Try fighting the Arborec sometime where their ground troops have production 1. Arborec invades a system with a mess of ground troops then as the last step gets to produce new units using its damned invaders, re-growing whatever it lost in the fight.

You need some interstellar Roundup in games with those leafy bastards.

Or the Ghosts where their flagship generates a delta-wormhole. Get three upgraded PDSs on their homeworld and tour the universe, moving your flagship into a system and then blast away with your deep space cannons.
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Xelvonar wrote:
Jimb0v wrote:
I don't think this this qualifies as shenanigans, it's just Saar being Saar. These type of deep interactions that emerge out of straightforward mechanical combinations are a big part of what make the racial abilities in TI terrific.

+1 for this. Try fighting the Arborec sometime where their ground troops have production 1. Arborec invades a system with a mess of ground troops then as the last step gets to produce new units using its damned invaders, re-growing whatever it lost in the fight.

You need some interstellar Roundup in games with those leafy bastards.

X-89 Bacterial Weapon
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Sander Stroom
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Or your space dock moves into a system, carrying only ground forces. The system has enemy PDS in range and some planets as well. PDS fire can not hit anything in space so you can land on the planets. Only GFs can get hit. So if a planet has 1 PDS on it, you land with 2 GFs and are guaranteed to take the planet. And after all that it is safe to build a fleet in space.
 
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Sande24 wrote:
Or your space dock moves into a system, carrying only ground forces. The system has enemy PDS in range and some planets as well. PDS fire can not hit anything in space so you can land on the planets. Only GFs can get hit. So if a planet has 1 PDS on it, you land with 2 GFs and are guaranteed to take the planet. And after all that it is safe to build a fleet in space.


SD’s have carrying cap now?

I really need to read the rules to ti4!

Actually Arborec ability does sound overwealming. If you can move, battle, and build with their GF’s all with 1 activation they must spread very quickly and be difficult to route out.
 
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Clayton Threadgill
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Lowecore wrote:
SD’s have carrying cap now?

I really need to read the rules to ti4!

Actually Arborec ability does sound overwealming. If you can move, battle, and build with their GF’s all with 1 activation they must spread very quickly and be difficult to route out.

Only the Saar space dock has capacity. Everyone else gets the normal space dock, which just has something like "up to 3 fighters in this system do not require capacity."

Arborec can be pretty nuts. If the table is relatively passive towards them, they can get out of control really quickly.
 
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Luke Nguyen
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This is very helpful.

Thank you everyone.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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So the general consensus on this turns out to be incorrect.

A ruling has been made that the Saar Space Dock can be fired upon by PDS only if it moves. In other words, if you decide to move it, the unit is treated as a ship for all purposes, including assigning hits during Space Cannon Offense.

The official ruling can be seen in question 5 of this response.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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Does this ruling mean Graviton Laser affects Saar space dock?
 
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Christopher Halbower
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Since Saar space docks count as ships for movement and (now) as targets of PDS’s, do they count as ships for fleet supply?
 
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Christopher Halbower
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Since Saar space docks can be targeted by PDS’s when they move, you cannot qualify for Turn Their Fleets to Dust unless your space cannons destroy the space docks. Is this correct?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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halbower wrote:
Does this ruling mean Graviton Laser affects Saar space dock?

In that you must target the Space Dock rather than the Fighters it brings along? Yes. I believe the Fighters should probably survive into the Space Combat, although I need to do a bit more research to be sure.

halbower wrote:
Since Saar space docks count as ships for movement and (now) as targets of PDS’s, do they count as ships for fleet supply?

Given the ruling, I'd have to say yes, but only if they move. Stationary ones would not count towards the fleet supply.

halbower wrote:
Since Saar space docks can be targeted by PDS’s when they move, you cannot qualify for Turn Their Fleets to Dust unless your space cannons destroy the space docks. Is this correct?

That seems right.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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Having the Saar count their moving space docks against their fleet supply is going to be weird. It may open an unwanted can of worms.
 
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