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Subject: Question after 3rd play rss

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michael ray
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We played the 2nd scenario today, and hit a card we hadn't seen before:

Paraphrasing:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Living bones uses all attacks against 1 player
Am I correct in assuming that means that if the bones has 3 attacks, they actually attack 1 person 3 times in a row? Cause, that's what we did



Anyways, we barely won, with the scoundrel exhausted, the tinker and spellweaver doing long rests on their last 2 cards to extend the game, and the craigheart finishing off the last bad guy.

We managed to draw 12 nulls!
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Only 6 out of the 10 curse nulls, from the scenario setup though


With the scoundrel being about as useless as usual,by the 3rd turn, was already forced to discard 3 cards to stay alive, and drew back to back,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
non-cursed
nulls on their high damage 'we really need these to hit' attacks.

At this point, 3 plays in, the tinkerer just barely hit level 2, the spellweaver easily hit level 2, the craigheart is 3xp away from level 2, and the scoundrel is down at a measly 30 xp, 15 away from leveling up, and with 10-20 less gold than everyone else as well.
 
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Bjorn B
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squegeeboo wrote:
We played the 2nd scenario today, and hit a card we hadn't seen before:

Paraphrasing:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Living bones uses all attacks against 1 player
Am I correct in assuming that means that if the bones has 3 attacks, they actually attack 1 person 3 times in a row? Cause, that's what we did



Every mention of the ability "attack X" can only cause each target to be attacked once. This ability card overrides that target X should be different targets.
So you were right.

You might see a card in the future like Move X, Attack X, Attack X. This means the 2 attacks are standard on the same target.
 
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michael ray
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Oh, I also forgot to mention that we're averaging about 3.5-4 hours a game, with the game play just really slowing down towards the end as less and less becomes possible.

Like, the first 90 minutes are fun, the next 60 are ok, and the rest is just pushing thru to a conclusion.
 
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Chris Ferejohn
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squegeeboo wrote:
Oh, I also forgot to mention that we're averaging about 3.5-4 hours a game, with the game play just really slowing down towards the end as less and less becomes possible.


I'm a little confused as to how fewer choices are going more slowly?
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Chris Willott
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squegeeboo wrote:
With the scoundrel being about as useless as usual


Don't blame the Scoundrel! When I played her, she got the most XP, tended to take down the most enemies, and got the most loot! Her controller may need to work on optimization -- though of course there's not much you can do against back-to-back nulls.

Contrasting my Scoundrel's best 28-point one-shot on a boss vs. my mindthief's pokes, she is missed in the new party when we're facing the big bads.
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Scott M
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If the Cragheart is behind on XP, they're not optimizing, losing both XP and damage. With the CH, it's possible to consistently get 22 to 26 xp per scenario, not counting the end bonus. It could also be an issue with item choices. You really want a stamina potion, movement boots, & maybe the shield.

The guy that played the scoundrel in our campaign had never played an RPG or dungeon crawl before, so he struggled to figure out the class. With a bit of advice and getting a few scenarios under his belt, he started to do a lot better and ending up being the first person to retire a character.
 
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michael ray
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cferejohn wrote:
squegeeboo wrote:
Oh, I also forgot to mention that we're averaging about 3.5-4 hours a game, with the game play just really slowing down towards the end as less and less becomes possible.


I'm a little confused as to how fewer choices are going more slowly?


Less damage potential due to cards remaining, less AOE chances (most of our attacks seem to be 'hit everyone for 1-2' vs 'do 8 damage all at once) which also limits damage potential, the scoundrel on life support, so nearly useless, and actually slightly more decision paralysis, because you need to start worrying about card loss a lot more when you have only 5 left vs 9+
 
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Chris Willott
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Our Cragheart is always lowest on XP. But I know sometimes he forgets. And I think he may have a very conservative play-style. I do find myself wondering at the ridiculous XP on his "charge" cards. (Every charge compared to every second on Scoundrel's.) He seems to have the most experience at dungeon crawl/RPGs, but he's also the youngest by a decade or so, so maybe that affects it too...
 
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michael ray
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Kambei4prez wrote:
If the Cragheart is behind on XP, they're not optimizing, losing both XP and damage. With the CH, it's possible to consistently get 22 to 26 xp per scenario, not counting the end bonus. It could also be an issue with item choices. You really want a stamina potion, movement boots, & maybe the shield.

The guy that played the scoundrel in our campaign had never played an RPG or dungeon crawl before, so he struggled to figure out the class. With a bit of advice and getting a few scenarios under his belt, he started to do a lot better and ending up being the first person to retire a character.


Craigheart is right in the mix, a little behind, but basically right with the other two. The scoundrel is who's super behind.


I am the scoundrel, with out another melee character to soak damage, and give me adjacency, I'm still trying to figure out what to do, and how to use her properly. A few early misplays, plus a few early enemy +2 attacks, and I've gotten crushed pretty hard the last 2 sessions.
 
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Chris Willott
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Actually, you should start worrying about card loss a lot more when you have 9+, because it will have a much greater impact on your total number of turns!
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Chris Willott
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She can definitely get herself kicked pretty hard if not careful: a tank she is not. I actually ended up buying her an invisibility cloak. When you get yourself in too deep, it's great to be able to disappear, and to do so without losing a card early on.

Also, you can alternate your rounds:
Low initiative number: hit hard then dance away before monsters attack
High initiative number: wait 'til monsters attack then dash in and hit hard.

This also results in more times when the enemy goes into melee against your allies (and you can make use of your ally adjacency bonuses).
 
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Per Erlandsson
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squegeeboo wrote:
We played the 2nd scenario today, and hit a card we hadn't seen before:

Paraphrasing:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Living bones uses all attacks against 1 player
Am I correct in assuming that means that if the bones has 3 attacks, they actually attack 1 person 3 times in a row? Cause, that's what we did



Anyways, we barely won, with the scoundrel exhausted, the tinker and spellweaver doing long rests on their last 2 cards to extend the game, and the craigheart finishing off the last bad guy.

We managed to draw 12 nulls!
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Only 6 out of the 10 curse nulls, from the scenario setup though


With the scoundrel being about as useless as usual,by the 3rd turn, was already forced to discard 3 cards to stay alive, and drew back to back,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
non-cursed
nulls on their high damage 'we really need these to hit' attacks.

At this point, 3 plays in, the tinkerer just barely hit level 2, the spellweaver easily hit level 2, the craigheart is 3xp away from level 2, and the scoundrel is down at a measly 30 xp, 15 away from leveling up, and with 10-20 less gold than everyone else as well.


Yes, a monster card that states that "all attacks are done against the same target" does all attacks against it's primary focus.

Remember that you DISCARD the Curses (and Blessings) once used, you still keep your intrinsic Null and Crit. If you think the game gets too random with Null/Crit you can play with the official "low variance variant" which treat both Crit/Null as +0 Cards triggering reshuffle.

My standard advice with Scoundrel is to abuse your high/low initiative cards plus your high movement. When engaging a group of monsters you can act very late, move in and hit them without risk, next round you play a very low initiative attack and move out. Tada, 2 attacks without the monsters having any chance to hurt you! Acting late can also be good because it could allow monsters to move into melee of your allies giving you a chance to get adjacency bonuses!

 
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michael ray
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perer005 wrote:
squegeeboo wrote:
We played the 2nd scenario today, and hit a card we hadn't seen before:

Paraphrasing:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Living bones uses all attacks against 1 player
Am I correct in assuming that means that if the bones has 3 attacks, they actually attack 1 person 3 times in a row? Cause, that's what we did



Anyways, we barely won, with the scoundrel exhausted, the tinker and spellweaver doing long rests on their last 2 cards to extend the game, and the craigheart finishing off the last bad guy.

We managed to draw 12 nulls!
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Only 6 out of the 10 curse nulls, from the scenario setup though


With the scoundrel being about as useless as usual,by the 3rd turn, was already forced to discard 3 cards to stay alive, and drew back to back,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
non-cursed
nulls on their high damage 'we really need these to hit' attacks.

At this point, 3 plays in, the tinkerer just barely hit level 2, the spellweaver easily hit level 2, the craigheart is 3xp away from level 2, and the scoundrel is down at a measly 30 xp, 15 away from leveling up, and with 10-20 less gold than everyone else as well.


Yes, a monster card that states that "all attacks are done against the same target" does all attacks against it's primary focus.

Remember that you DISCARD the Curses (and Blessings) once used, you still keep your intrinsic Null and Crit. If you think the game gets too random with Null/Crit you can play with the official "low variance variant" which treat both Crit/Null as +0 Cards triggering reshuffle.

My standard advice with Scoundrel is to abuse your high/low initiative cards plus your high movement. When engaging a group of monsters you can act very late, move in and hit them without risk, next round you play a very low initiative attack and move out. Tada, 2 attacks without the monsters having any chance to hurt you! Acting late can also be good because it could allow monsters to move into melee of your allies giving you a chance to get adjacency bonuses!



Thanks for the advice, we def. did the curse cards correctly, just had terrible luck with NULL draws in general.

It seems like every time I've tried to abuse the late/early initiative, the cards the monsters draw ruin the plan. Either the archers get their super low initiative or place trap cards, or the bones/guards get their shield/heal or shield/retaliate...totally ruining the plan.
 
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patrick mullen
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Yeah I'm finding the scoundrel a bit hard to use compared to my party's brute and spellweaver. It's really helpful to get out those buffs at the right time to get the most use out of them. (Like the one that does +2 damage to enemies by themselves for 4 attacks). Also, poison is clutch, especially when the monsters start putting up shields a lot. Maybe bring a poison dagger so you can apply it more often.

Agree that AP can increase due to the tension increasing, though I find that makes the game more fun as it goes on rather than less. I tend to be a bit meh at the beginning when we're able to do so much so easily.
 
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Matt Ziemer
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saluk wrote:
Yeah I'm finding the scoundrel a bit hard to use compared to my party's brute and spellweaver. It's really helpful to get out those buffs at the right time to get the most use out of them. (Like the one that does +2 damage to enemies by themselves for 4 attacks). Also, poison is clutch, especially when the monsters start putting up shields a lot. Maybe bring a poison dagger so you can apply it more often.

Agree that AP can increase do to the tension increasing, though I find that makes the game more fun as it goes on rather than less. I tend to be a bit meh at the beginning when we're able to do so much so easily.


As so many have said on here, scoundrel often tends to be the most powerful character in the party by far. It really seems to depend heavily who is playing and how. I've seen the same with spoiler classes
Spoiler (click to reveal)
like triforce or lightning bolt.
I've seen a player struggle heavily and when they finally retire and get a different style of character, they then excell.

Stick with her for now and as you lvl and more options become available, you can build her in a way that works for you. Heck, if there is really no melee characters in your party to work with, scoundrel has enough ranged cards eventually that you could really build and ranged DPS scoundrel. Bottom for +2 on all atks combined with an Atk 2, target 4, Rnge 3. Just as a quick example you could be hitting pretty hard that way too.
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Jason Wallace
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I’ve seen the scoundrel really wipe the floor with enemies, especially early on. Our scoundrel player is usually conservative, but the scoundrel class opened up her aggressive side. She often burns cards like crazy. It’s fun!

It might seem counter intuitive, but removing monsters from the table early can be better than playing more turns.

The invisibility cloak has also been key. Invisibility doesn’t go away when you attack and can be manipulated to last almost two full turns. Not taking damage keeps more cards in hand.
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Jeroen
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- A win is a win. Scenario 2 is difficult.
- Tinkerer and Cragheart are the most durable classes. Even the Spellweaver can last a lot longer than the Scoundrel, if she plays conservatively. The Scoundrel is the best at DPS, not at survival.
- From the Scoundrel's perspective, this is the toughest group she could be in, without another melee character to help her out.

So I would not worry too much...
However, I suspect you might be the only Scoundrel willing to soak up all the damage without getting paid for it. Did you really drop 3 cards because of damage in round 3? You should never be in a position where you can get hit 3 times.
 
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MC Crispy
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DobbelB wrote:
You might see a card in the future like Move X, Attack X, Attack X. This means the 2 attacks are standard on the same target.
That is still awaiting a clarification in the FAQ - there is a separate thread discussing that style of card - IIRC, aflorin has an outstanding request in with the designer.
 
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Will H
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mccrispy wrote:
DobbelB wrote:
You might see a card in the future like Move X, Attack X, Attack X. This means the 2 attacks are standard on the same target.
That is still awaiting a clarification in the FAQ - there is a separate thread discussing that style of card - IIRC, aflorin has an outstanding request in with the designer.


But what is the ambiguity? I'm not sure how else that could be interpreted. Is there a link to a discussion?
 
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squegeeboo wrote:
Like, the first 90 minutes are fun, the next 60 are ok, and the rest is just pushing thru to a conclusion.


I have played five scenarios and this has been my experience every time. The fun seems to dwindle throughout the game to an anticlimactic conclusion. Everyone tells me it will get better. I am still waiting.
 
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Arthur Janicek
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DobbelB wrote:
You might see a card in the future like Move X, Attack X, Attack X. This means the 2 attacks are standard on the same target.
@ Mccrispy. If I was a betting man, I'd say the above quoted text will prove to be true.
 
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Biomage wrote:
squegeeboo wrote:
Like, the first 90 minutes are fun, the next 60 are ok, and the rest is just pushing thru to a conclusion.


I have played five scenarios and this has been my experience every time. The fun seems to dwindle throughout the game to an anticlimactic conclusion. Everyone tells me it will get better. I am still waiting.


Aside from the fact that our scenarios usually run by much faster, I'd say 1.5 hours on average, with perhaps 30 minutes variation, we rarely have an anticlimatic ending.

In the beginning, we enjoy firing off our cool combos, and the closer we get to exhaustion, the more tense and exciting the game is. When we finish with only 1-2 characters standing (and even them on the brink of exhaustion), there's usually a general sense of satisfaction in actually making it.

Are you getting struck by AP in the late game?
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MC Crispy
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Biomage wrote:
squegeeboo wrote:
Like, the first 90 minutes are fun, the next 60 are ok, and the rest is just pushing thru to a conclusion.


I have played five scenarios and this has been my experience every time. The fun seems to dwindle throughout the game to an anticlimactic conclusion. Everyone tells me it will get better. I am still waiting.
Then you are either (a) waaaaaaay better at the game than is my group or (b) playing at a lower difficulty than you should be playing.

In almost every scenario I've played (excepting where we've screwed up and either made it super-hard or super-easy through a misinterpretation or a tactical cluster-frack) it's gone to the wire. I'm continually amazed at how balanced the outcome is, commonly getting to the point where we win with only around half a dozen playable cards left across the 4-player party before we would all become exhausted. That pretty much keeps tension going to the end for us. I'm glad I'm such a crappy player that I can still enjoy the game without having to turn the difficulty up too far.
 
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MC Crispy
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SirDingleberry wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
DobbelB wrote:
You might see a card in the future like Move X, Attack X, Attack X. This means the 2 attacks are standard on the same target.
That is still awaiting a clarification in the FAQ - there is a separate thread discussing that style of card - IIRC, aflorin has an outstanding request in with the designer.


But what is the ambiguity? I'm not sure how else that could be interpreted. Is there a link to a discussion?

Daemon6 wrote:
DobbelB wrote:
You might see a card in the future like Move X, Attack X, Attack X. This means the 2 attacks are standard on the same target.
@ Mccrispy. If I was a betting man, I'd say the above quoted text will prove to be true.
Yes there's been discussion, no, I can't be bothered to find the threads, sorry. If you are interested, you can look as easily as I can.

One has to be careful about representing a card in text form:

Move X, Attack X, Attack X

is not the same as

Move X
Attack X
Attack X

and the rules on targetting a target multiple times with the same Ability, while apparently clear, have led to discussions over the significance of cards like

Attack X
Move Y
Attack Z

and the selection of Focus.
 
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Arthur Janicek
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mccrispy wrote:
Biomage wrote:
squegeeboo wrote:
Like, the first 90 minutes are fun, the next 60 are ok, and the rest is just pushing thru to a conclusion.


I have played five scenarios and this has been my experience every time. The fun seems to dwindle throughout the game to an anticlimactic conclusion. Everyone tells me it will get better. I am still waiting.
Then you are either (a) waaaaaaay better at the game than is my group or (b) playing at a lower difficulty than you should be playing.

In almost every scenario I've played (excepting where we've screwed up and either made it super-hard or super-easy through a misinterpretation or a tactical cluster-frack) it's gone to the wire. I'm continually amazed at how balanced the outcome is, commonly getting to the point where we win with only around half a dozen playable cards left across the 4-player party before we would all become exhausted. That pretty much keeps tension going to the end for us. I'm glad I'm such a crappy player that I can still enjoy the game without having to turn the difficulty up too far.
I second this N.
 
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