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Subject: Lineages and controlling multiple characters rss

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Robert Stewart
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The rulebook says that when a player retires a character, any future characters that player creates get an additional perk on creation, unless that player is controlling multiple characters, in which case each lineage accrues perks independently.

The question then, is how does this work? What counts as starting a new lineage?

It's clear in a couple of scenarios:

A) A player generates a new character when they first start playing, and then only generates new characters when their previous character retires. This is all a single lineage.

B) A player generates 2 characters when they start playing, takes both of them into every scenario, and replaces each of them with new characters as they retire. This is clearly 2 separate lineages.

There are other scenarios where things are less clear:

C) A player generates 2 characters when they start playing, then alternates which they take on each scenario. As each retires, they get replaced by a new character, but they never both see play in the same scenario. Is that one lineage (they're never played at the same time) or two (their periods of being available characters in the party from creation to retirement overlap)?

D) A player generates a character, plays them through to retirement, then generates a new character, plays them for a while, but not to retirement, and then generates a third character and switches to them full time. Does the third character get a free perk, or do they start a new lineage? If the player eventually returns to the second character, and gets them to retirement, does that leave two lineages with a common first character?
 
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Brian Ramsel
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Most of this can be cleared up if you think about it the same way as if 2 different people were playing. As long as you keep the characters assigned to a specific "player" there shouldn't be any confusion.

I would say you could never "trade" a character to the other "player" But instead could roll a new character of that class for the other player.
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Bjorn B
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I think this rule was made so a player wouldn't get those bonus perks too quickly by working on multiple characters in the same scenario.

As long as you don't play two characters together, you don't get that speedy perk generation, so I wouldn't bother with this rule. Both C and D would be in the same lineage for me.

There are some more complexities possible.
For instance, I wouldn't grant a alternate played character a free perk when the other character retires. Free perks are given on character creation.
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Alex Florin
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I interpret "controlling multiple characters" as meaning the player has rolled up more than one, irrespective of whether he plays them at the same time. So:

A) 2 lineages

B) C1 and C2 are one lineage (halted until C2 retires). C3 is a second lineage
 
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Marcus Lind
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I think it best to think that each starting character has it's own lineage, regardless of who the player is. But if you create a new character without retiring another character first, the newly created character gets it's own lineage.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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The way I interpret it, if one player creates two characters, but that player only ever controls one at a time (those two characters never show up in the same scenario), then it counts as being part of a single lineage. The whole point of the multiple lineages thing is to make sure solo players aren't accelerating their benefits from retirement, but if you do as above, you're still making standard progress toward retirement. (You would, on average, retire both characters at the same time, around the same time a player who only controlled a single character would have retired his second character.)
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Matt Ziemer
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C) 1 lineage.

D) I don't see why this has to ever become two lineages, as long as you never have any overlap.

Character 1 gets no bonus perk.- retires.
Character 2 gets 1 bonus perk. Stop playing.
Char 3 get 1 bonus perk.- Retires.
Character 4 gets 2 bonus perks.- Retires.
Character 2. Start playing again.- Retires.
Character 5 gets 4 bonus perks. - Retires.

Again, there's nothing that makes this different from option C as long as there is no instance of playing simultaneously.
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Josh
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The easiest way to track lineages is by completed goals. Write the name of the goals completed by the previous 'generation' in the lineage on each new 'generation.' This way even if you play multiple characters or part time ones each is tied to it's own line of completed goals.
 
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MC Crispy
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Your answers are implicit in the word "lineage". Any character that replaces a retired character is part of that character's lineage. So any time you start a new character that isn't a replacement for a character that has retired, you are starting a new lineage.
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Ben Martell
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The point of lineages is for solo players or groups where people play more than one character during a scenario or rotate characters amongst the group.

If a group plays as intended - each character is only ever played by one person and each person only ever plays one character in a scenario - then every character created by a person is in the same lineage.
 
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Stefan
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I think there are some edge cases with this rule where you should just apply common sense. Our group for example played almost always with 4 characters at once and also did a couple of random dungeons as well as focussing heavily on fulfilling our lifetime goals as quick as possible. Now, we are close to finishing the main quest line, but still have alot of scenarios to play while we only have 5 lifetime goals left. I created two different characters which I use for myself while playing solo, which are in two different lineages. Both of them only require me to play one scenario in order to get them retired, which would leave me with 3 lifetime goals left and still alot of scenarios on the board. I figure that at some point I will run out of goals, before everything is completed and then according to RAW, I would have to create a fresh character with a separate lineage if I wanted to play a different class. But I guess, this would go against the intention of the rule, that you are awarded with additional perks with enough play experience and I think I will give myself atleast one perk for free in the beginning, so that I could manage to unlock all of them.

On the other hand, if you always only play one character and go with one lineage, you would max out your perks too soon, if you have 5+ chars retired already, making the battlegoals less useful. So here I would again houserule it to have a max of 3 or something additional perks for new chars in order to keep motivation up.
 
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Josh
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I would call being able to ignore battlegoals a solid bonus.
 
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Stefan
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Shadrach wrote:
I would call bejng aboe to ignore battlegoals a solid bonus.
I like the goals as an additional game element and even houseruled that you get 5 gold per checkmark if you can't use them anymore to generate perks. Improving the attack modifier deck is still a bigger motivation to do them then getting a few gold as reward though.
 
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Josh
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danom wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
I would call bejng aboe to ignore battlegoals a solid bonus.
I like the goals as an additional game element and even houseruled that you get 5 gold per checkmark if you can't use them anymore to generate perks. Improving the attack modifier deck is still a bigger motivation to do them then getting a few gold as reward though.


Hey everyone can houserule all they like. I just think not having to do them is a relief, and it matches thematically with a heroic lineage that is above petty needs and can devote themselves wholey to the welfare of their comrades in arms.
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Robert Stewart
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A couple more scenarios to consider:

E) A player creates 3 characters and rotates between them, playing 2 in any given scenario. Two lineages or three?

F) A player retires their first (and only) character and creates a new character. After a couple of scenarios, they decide they really don't like that class and abandon the character. Does the new character qualify for a bonus perk?

For F), I'd happily allow the player to pretend their second character never existed and treat the new character as the original's heir - and return the renounced character's personal goal to the pool too.
 
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Josh
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rmsgrey wrote:
A couple more scenarios to consider:

E) A player creates 3 characters and rotates between them, playing 2 in any given scenario. Two lineages or three?

F) A player retires their first (and only) character and creates a new character. After a couple of scenarios, they decide they really don't like that class and abandon the character. Does the new character qualify for a bonus perk?

For F), I'd happily allow the player to pretend their second character never existed and treat the new character as the original's heir - and return the renounced character's personal goal to the pool too.


E)to make this clear, simply track the 'generation' under notes on the character. When you retire a character and make a new one note it is 2nd generation, when it retures your new kne is 3rd and so on. So player E would have 3 rotating bloodlines.

F)I would do the same as you did, because fun is the most important part of the game and your fix creates no balance issues.
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Marcus Lind
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Exactly.
One starting character = one lineage.
Retire a character and start a new one to fill it's place = continue lineage.
Start a new character without retiring another first = new lineage.
Retire a character and start two new characters = continue lineage with one new character and start a new lineage with the other. Your choice.

Of course, you may houserule however you want, but that is variants.
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Marcus Lind
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Or not. Might be more like this:
Character 1 > 2
3 > 4,5
4 > 6
5 > 7
2 > 8

Where the arrows denote lineages and each number is a separate character. Kind of like a family tree with generations.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you only play one character at a time (only one hands of cards at a time) then you don't need to worry about lineages at all. Bonuses apply to you as a player.

You can make as many characters as you want. After you retire one, any new ones you make after that get one check. After you retire your second, any new ones will get a second, etc.

All this stuff about lineages only matters if you play two hands at once, right?
 
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Robert Stewart
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ftl_ftw wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you only play one character at a time (only one hands of cards at a time) then you don't need to worry about lineages at all. Bonuses apply to you as a player.

You can make as many characters as you want. After you retire one, any new ones you make after that get one check. After you retire your second, any new ones will get a second, etc.

All this stuff about lineages only matters if you play two hands at once, right?


That is rather the question.

One model is, as you say, that it's only when you play two characters on the same run through a scenario that you have to separate your characters into "lineages" - one for each character on the same run.

Another model is that creating a new character creates a new lineage except when replacing a retired character (or possibly an abandoned character) - that switching between a pool of characters between scenarios counts as controlling multiple characters at once (at the campaign level, not the scenario level)
 
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Darren Nakamura
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marcuslind1 wrote:
Exactly.
One starting character = one lineage.
Retire a character and start a new one to fill it's place = continue lineage.
Start a new character without retiring another first = new lineage.
Retire a character and start two new characters = continue lineage with one new character and start a new lineage with the other. Your choice.

Of course, you may houserule however you want, but that is variants.


I disagree with this interpretation. Consider the following example.

A player plays this game a lot. He only ever plays one character at a time. He retires five characters, and starts his sixth character with five whole perks right away (wow).

But then he plays that character for a bit, decides he doesn't like it, and doesn't want to ever play it again. So he makes a different character. By your definition, this is now a different lineage, and he starts back at +0 bonus perks. In fact, he will never get back those first five retirements worth of effort unless he returns to the character he didn't like and trudges through to retirement.

I don't think this is what was intended by the lineage rule.
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Daniel Frey
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We recently got an additional FAQ entry regarding lineages:
FAQ wrote:
Which newly created characters do you consider part of a lineage if a player plays with multiple characters at the same time or alternates between characters?
A lineage is a direct descendancy of retired and new characters as chosen by the player. If you rolled up two characters at the beginning of the campaign and are playing them together in one session or alternating them between sessions, they each have their own lineage. When one retires, the next character you start can either be their own new lineage or part of the one that retires, your choice. If you want the perk, you'll want to make it part of the lineage of a retired character. It's just about whether you want the free perk or not.

Tbh I'm not sure how to interpret this: Does this mean that each lineage can contain only one non-retired character and you can only add a new character to that lineage once the previous was retired?
As a background: I'm coming from this thread which evolved into a full blown lineage discussion, but I thought the discussion would better fit in here.
 
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Robert Stewart
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daimpi wrote:
We recently got an additional FAQ entry regarding lineages:
FAQ wrote:
Which newly created characters do you consider part of a lineage if a player plays with multiple characters at the same time or alternates between characters?
A lineage is a direct descendancy of retired and new characters as chosen by the player. If you rolled up two characters at the beginning of the campaign and are playing them together in one session or alternating them between sessions, they each have their own lineage. When one retires, the next character you start can either be their own new lineage or part of the one that retires, your choice. If you want the perk, you'll want to make it part of the lineage of a retired character. It's just about whether you want the free perk or not.

Tbh I'm not sure how to interpret this: Does this mean that each lineage can contain only one non-retired character and you can only add a new character to that lineage once the previous was retired?
As a background: I'm coming from this thread which evolved into a full blown lineage discussion, but I thought the discussion would better fit in here.


I suggest moving the discussion to Yet another Lineages thread
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MC Crispy
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daimpi wrote:
We recently got an additional FAQ entry regarding lineages:
FAQ wrote:
Which newly created characters do you consider part of a lineage if a player plays with multiple characters at the same time or alternates between characters?
A lineage is a direct descendancy of retired and new characters as chosen by the player. If you rolled up two characters at the beginning of the campaign and are playing them together in one session or alternating them between sessions, they each have their own lineage. When one retires, the next character you start can either be their own new lineage or part of the one that retires, your choice. If you want the perk, you'll want to make it part of the lineage of a retired character. It's just about whether you want the free perk or not.

Tbh I'm not sure how to interpret this: Does this mean that each lineage can contain only one non-retired character and you can only add a new character to that lineage once the previous was retired?
As a background: I'm coming from this thread which evolved into a full blown lineage discussion, but I thought the discussion would better fit in here.
The reason for this rule is very straightforward: it's to prevent a player that plays multiple characters from claiming too many perks for their new characters. Without "lineage isolation" a solo player who plays with 3 characters would get 3 perks for each new character once they retire the initial three. With lineage isolation the bonus perks apply only within a lineage, which is to say that once the first three characters retire, their replacements only get one bonus perk each (which is the same as a player who only plays one character at a time). Once you understand why the rule exists, it's not difficult to implement it.
 
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Bjorn B
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True about the reason lineages exist. But the FAQ ruling is telling you also need to separate lineages when playing separately but when alternating.

I do understand being able to cherrypick scenario's does speed up retirements a bit. But it's more strict than expected.

But somehow this ruling doesn't forbid splitting a lineage to fullfill the direct descendancy requirement.



But maybe I'm just looking for excuses to make the way I was playing to be in line with the rules. I was playing solo with 2 characters, both retired. I made a second generation of 3 characters, and I gave all of them a bonus perk.
 
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