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Warhammer Underworlds: Shadespire» Forums » Variants

Subject: Reducing the number of roll-offs needed (to 1) rss

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Stephan
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The rules say to roll 4 dice each and look for crits to decide who goes first. Ties in these roll-offs are quite common and can get annoying.

My variant:
If there is a tie for crits, compare the number of hammers/shields.
If still tied, compare the number of swords/arrows.
Then support.
Then double support.

This might be even easier with each player rolling just 2 or 3 dice.
 
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Mark Bigney
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Alexandria Bay
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This has been addressed in the official FAQ. Your method is equivalent to their, which is
-if tied for crits, look at double support;
-if still tied, look at single support.
The official method is slightly preferable, in my estimation, in that it is fully agnostic as to whether using attack or defense dice.
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Erik Nicely
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Gyges wrote:
This has been addressed in the official FAQ. Your method is equivalent to their, which is
-if tied for crits, look at double support;
-if still tied, look at single support.
The official method is slightly preferable, in my estimation, in that it is fully agnostic as to whether using attack or defense dice.


You have it backwards. Count crits first, then single support, then double support. Half moons beat full moons as roll off tiebreaker. If still tied roll again.
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Jeff Carrier
Canada
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The Roll-off is my least favorite aspect of this game...

I think when I play, I'll have each player take one dice, and whoever rolls a crit wins. Re-roll on ties. Done.
 
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Havelock Vetinari
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Or... Just flip a coin /victory point token /activation token.
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Sum
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Columbus
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Chance of having to repeat the roll post-FAQ is about 14%. Chance pre-FAQ was about 52%. Your method does not guarantee only a single roll off. There is a about a 3.7% of having to re-roll. Your method would be more effective, but not much more effective and at the cost of remembering extra things.


Also, rolling less dice increases the chance to re-roll, so this is not an effective solution.

Flipping a coin is of course the most effective because it always determines a winner, but it seems trashy haha

I like the FAQ solution personally.
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♥Dust Pixie♥
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sumanye wrote:
Chance pre-FAQ was about 52%.


It was closer to 40%, or 331763/839808, and 6% post (2759/46656).

For Stephan's variant there's 2%, or 9895/419904.

I still think 40% was high enough to make it weird that they didn't catch this in playtesting. Shadespire already has 50/50 shots built in where you roll one die and if it's crit or smash/shield it's a success. They could've used that for the roll-offs. And it's not even easy to house rule because of the "they get one extra free crit" rule that you sometimes apply.

6% might sound low but it happened in our very first game.
It's just weird since this game is otherwise so elegant. The reaction timing is the other flaw in the gem. And how everywhere in reviews, playthroughs, and the rulebooks they explain the crit system so convolutedly. (They first compare successes and then let crits "override" that in a convoluted way, instead of starting by comparing crits, and going to successes as tiebreakers.)
 
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♥Dust Pixie♥
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With Jeff's variant there's a 72% chance of a tie, or 13/18. (Out of the 36 ways two dice can fall, 26 are ties: 25 there's no crit, 1 there's two crits, and 10 there is exactly one crit i.e. not a tie. And 26/36 = 13/18 = 72%.)

With Jeff's variant it takes an average of 2.6 rerolls (i.e. 3.6 attempts, including the successful attempt) to find a winner of the roll-off.
 
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Tom Hill
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I think some of the issue is to do with the dice in the box.

With the roll-off rule as written, you don't have to worry about having black or white dice, as the crit-count is the same. If you mix the dice you have to start comparing shields with swords and hammers with dodges (or was it the other way round, where do I check), which I assume they thought would add complexity. Especially when someone is rolling 3-black and 1-white.

Far easier to take just take the crits, and make them roll again if necessary. At least for an entry level player.
 
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♥Dust Pixie♥
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As Mark points out, both the black and the white dice look the same when it comes to support, which is what the post-FAQ method leverages.

So you could've had "One player rolls one dice (any color). If it comes up support, double-support or crit, that player won the roll-off."

I do have another argument in favor of the pre-FAQ, in the box method.
It trains the players to both rolls, and then look for crits, and most crits win. Just like in the actual battles in the game.

But, that's just devil's advocacy. Overall I think the pre-FAQ method was cumbersome, overwrought, inelegant and above all embarrassing. This is the first exposure someone has to the game and they're rerolling for ties a bunch of times? I read the rule, thought "Won't that lead to a lot of ties?", started looking at YouTube videos, and sure enough. They reroll and reroll and reroll.
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Sum
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Columbus
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snth wrote:
sumanye wrote:
Chance pre-FAQ was about 52%.


It was closer to 40%, or 331763/839808, and 6% post (2759/46656).

For Stephan's variant there's 2%, or 9895/419904.

I still think 40% was high enough to make it weird that they didn't catch this in playtesting. Shadespire already has 50/50 shots built in where you roll one die and if it's crit or smash/shield it's a success. They could've used that for the roll-offs. And it's not even easy to house rule because of the "they get one extra free crit" rule that you sometimes apply.

6% might sound low but it happened in our very first game.
It's just weird since this game is otherwise so elegant. The reaction timing is the other flaw in the gem. And how everywhere in reviews, playthroughs, and the rulebooks they explain the crit system so convolutedly. (They first compare successes and then let crits "override" that in a convoluted way, instead of starting by comparing crits, and going to successes as tiebreakers.)


I don't agree with your calculation, can you explain it?

Edit: Found my mistake, I agree with you now!
 
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