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Subject: Wall as Obstacle? rss

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Jonathan Kinney
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So I know it must be in here and if there was a way to search within BGG then I may have been able to find it. But I think I may have discovered a rule we got wrong - a wall is not an obstacle? Is that correct? We have been playing that it is.

 
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Chris Willott
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It is not technically an "obstacle". But it can certainly get in the way.

You can shoot "through" an "obstacle" (think: over or around, but just counting it as a single hex). Some cards let you destroy "obstacles". Obstacles don't block line of sight for ranged attacks, AOEs, or Loot actions.

You can also jump/fly over obstacles (but can't end a jump on one).

You can't do any of the above with walls: You can't destroy them (so far as I know), you can't jump/fly over them. You can't target any hexes with AOEs, ranged attacks, or Loot actions on the other side of them (unless you have LOS) -- and when determining range for ranged attacks and LOOT actions that DO have LOS, you have to count the hex in the doorway/corridor (you can't count through the wall).
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Cole Robinson
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A wall is not an obstacle. Also traps, doors and difficult terrain are not obstacles. Obstacles are highlighted in green in the Scenario setup.
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Flo
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jonocop wrote:
So I know it must be in here and if there was a way to search within BGG



The forum has a search function. You can also write in Google additionaly to you search words site:boardgamegeek.com
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MC Crispy
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florencka wrote:
jonocop wrote:
So I know it must be in here and if there was a way to search within BGG



The forum has a search function. You can also write in Google additionaly to you search words site:boardgamegeek.com
The forum does indeed have a search function - but it doesn't search inside Spoiler tags, so is of limited use with many rules questions. Which is why some on the forum are more tolerant of repeat questions and are happy to cut folk some slack.
 
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Flo
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mccrispy wrote:
The forum does indeed have a search function - but it doesn't search inside Spoiler tags, so is of limited use with many rules questions. Which is why some on the forum are more tolerant of repeat questions and are happy to cut folk some slack.


I agree that the spoiler tags are a problem. Google seems to search inside them though. I made this remark because I'm sure many are unaware of the "site:" functionality and that google can search through the site so well.
 
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MC Crispy
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florencka wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
The forum does indeed have a search function - but it doesn't search inside Spoiler tags, so is of limited use with many rules questions. Which is why some on the forum are more tolerant of repeat questions and are happy to cut folk some slack.


I agree that the spoiler tags are a problem. Google seems to search inside them though. I made this remark because I'm sure many are unaware of the "site:" functionality and that google can search through the site so well.
I am aware of the Site: "switch" and have used it for years. But I (almost) never search BGG using an external search engine - partly 'cos I've never bothered figuring out how to focus on a specific forum (other than using the game's name in the search) and without that, the results are a bit "shotgunny". But I just checked to see whether I could find this thread with an Internet search engine using the criteria
Spoiler (click to reveal)
gloomhaven "mass hysteria" "parasitic influence" "psychic knife" site:boardgamegeek.com
and it returned the OP for that thread, so it definitely looked inside the spoilers. Nice.
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natty nate
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This is interesting because we are playing a scenario where a wall obstacle is outlined in green in the scenario book, which the rule book says makes it an obstacle...and that a ranged attack can go through or over an obstacle.

Feels wrong but that’s a literal reading of the scenario book and rule book.
 
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Geoff Watson
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natty_n8 wrote:
This is interesting because we are playing a scenario where a wall obstacle is outlined in green in the scenario book, which the rule book says makes it an obstacle...and that a ranged attack can go through or over an obstacle.

Feels wrong but that’s a literal reading of the scenario book and rule book.


Which scenario?
 
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Jay Johnson
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natty_n8 wrote:
This is interesting because we are playing a scenario where a wall obstacle is outlined in green in the scenario book, which the rule book says makes it an obstacle...and that a ranged attack can go through or over an obstacle.

Feels wrong but that’s a literal reading of the scenario book and rule book.

The confusion here is that there are some two-hex overlay tiles that have some J-shaped "wall sections". (some examples of scenarios that use these: #11 and #12)

As far as I know, these are treated like obstacles and not true "walls".
Think of them as partial walls that only go a few feet up, but have open space above them, which allows for shooting or jumping/flying over the top of these "wall segments".

Where as true walls go from floor to ceiling, and don't allow jumping/flying or shooting over, and block all vision. The only true walls occur at the edge of all map tiles (as well as any partial hexes) that don't have an open door or corridor overlay tile that connects it to another map tile.
 
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natty nate
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Geoff Watson wrote:
natty_n8 wrote:
This is interesting because we are playing a scenario where a wall obstacle is outlined in green in the scenario book, which the rule book says makes it an obstacle...and that a ranged attack can go through or over an obstacle.

Feels wrong but that’s a literal reading of the scenario book and rule book.


Which scenario?


Spoiler (click to reveal)
12
 
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natty nate
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JayJ79 wrote:
natty_n8 wrote:
This is interesting because we are playing a scenario where a wall obstacle is outlined in green in the scenario book, which the rule book says makes it an obstacle...and that a ranged attack can go through or over an obstacle.

Feels wrong but that’s a literal reading of the scenario book and rule book.

The confusion here is that there are some two-hex overlay tiles that have some J-shaped "wall sections". (some examples of scenarios that use these: #11 and #12)

As far as I know, these are treated like obstacles and not true "walls".
Think of them as partial walls that only go a few feet up, but have open space above them, which allows for shooting or jumping/flying over the top of these "wall segments".

Where as true walls go from floor to ceiling, and don't allow jumping/flying or shooting over, and block all vision. The only true walls occur at the edge of all map tiles (as well as any partial hexes) that don't have an open door or corridor overlay tile that connects it to another map tile.


Yep that was my confusion exactly. We played as if they were wall tiles at the edge of a tile piece. I don’t think it impacted the outcome of the scenario this time but it could.

Is there any other discussion of this interpretation, that they aren’t real walls but more just a half wall? It makes sense in terms of how they are colored in the scenario book. But my companion ruled against that reading and I’d love to have more “ammunition” to make my case.
 
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Jay Johnson
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natty_n8 wrote:
Yep that was my confusion exactly. We played as if they were wall tiles at the edge of a tile piece. I don’t think it impacted the outcome of the scenario this time but it could.

Is there any other discussion of this interpretation, that they aren’t real walls but more just a half wall? It makes sense in terms of how they are colored in the scenario book. But my companion ruled against that reading and I’d love to have more “ammunition” to make my case.

If they were true walls, then having archers stationed inside of a circle of wall segments makes absolutely no sense.

Therefore those "wall segments" are really only obstacles and not true walls. However it is possible that certain scenarios could grant special properties to certain overlay tiles, but if that is the case, it will be explained in the "special rules" on that scenario entry itself.
 
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MC Crispy
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JayJ79 wrote:
natty_n8 wrote:
Yep that was my confusion exactly. We played as if they were wall tiles at the edge of a tile piece. I don’t think it impacted the outcome of the scenario this time but it could.

Is there any other discussion of this interpretation, that they aren’t real walls but more just a half wall? It makes sense in terms of how they are colored in the scenario book. But my companion ruled against that reading and I’d love to have more “ammunition” to make my case.

If they were true walls, then having archers stationed inside of a circle of wall segments makes absolutely no sense.
This is absolutely irrelevant to a discussion of the rules. The rules are absolutes.

Quote:
Therefore those "wall segments" are really only obstacles and not true walls. However it is possible that certain scenarios could grant special properties to certain overlay tiles, but if that is the case, it will be explained in the "special rules" on that scenario entry itself.
Those overlay tiles are defined as Obstacles by the rules. No need for thematic justification or overthinking it, just figure out what role apply and to with that. The rules for Overlay tiles are pretty straightforward.
 
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Jay Johnson
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mccrispy wrote:
JayJ79 wrote:
natty_n8 wrote:
Yep that was my confusion exactly. We played as if they were wall tiles at the edge of a tile piece. I don’t think it impacted the outcome of the scenario this time but it could.

Is there any other discussion of this interpretation, that they aren’t real walls but more just a half wall? It makes sense in terms of how they are colored in the scenario book. But my companion ruled against that reading and I’d love to have more “ammunition” to make my case.

If they were true walls, then having archers stationed inside of a circle of wall segments makes absolutely no sense.
This is absolutely irrelevant to a discussion of the rules. The rules are absolutes.

Quote:
Therefore those "wall segments" are really only obstacles and not true walls. However it is possible that certain scenarios could grant special properties to certain overlay tiles, but if that is the case, it will be explained in the "special rules" on that scenario entry itself.
Those overlay tiles are defined as Obstacles by the rules. No need for thematic justification or overthinking it, just figure out what role apply and to with that. The rules for Overlay tiles are pretty straightforward.

If you want to get snarky about it and are totally against the use of logical inference: nowhere in the rules does it say that these wall segments are not walls, and aren't subject to the rules of walls.
 
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Steve Bartlett
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While at times it is hard to believe, Gloomhaven follows a strict set of relatively simple rules, and at its core is a board game with strict rules, not a role play game with dungeon master discretion.

Overlay tiles are colour-marked on the scenario map determining what they are. If they are obstacles they follow the obstacle rules, not any other rules. The names applied to them, and the artwork printed on them is irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned unless the scenario has special rules that say different.
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MC Crispy
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SteveCB wrote:
While at times it is hard to believe, Gloomhaven follows a strict set of relatively simple rules, and at its core is a board game with strict rules, not a role play game with dungeon master discretion.

Overlay tiles are colour-marked on the scenario map determining what they are. If they are obstacles they follow the obstacle rules, not any other rules. The names applied to them, and the artwork printed on them is irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned unless the scenario has special rules that say different.
I do believe that we are singing from the same (snarkless) hymn sheet.
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