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Subject: Simple two player element fix rss

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Fred Quimbey
United States
Santa Fe
New Mexico
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So Ive been using a simple fix for elements for two players. Because the rounds to so quickly and its almost impossible to use an element before its consumed/exausted, I use this tweak to keep the gameplay more inline with a larger party.

Instead of putting the elements in the strong column when they are formed they are put off the board. That way when they begin to diminish for that round they are moved to the strong column. This makes sure that you aren't disadvantaged for playing with fewer players and doesn't break the game as far as I can tell.
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Stefan
Germany
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What is the difference in element use compared to a bigger party? As far as I can tell, it can become even more complicated with a bigger group because depending on your setup you can have more chars that want to use the same element. Also you will make the monsters stronger, that sometimes create elements to use them in one of the subsequent rounds.
 
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Robert Marney
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Be careful - once you start encountering monsters that interact with elements, this could get weird fast. If the enemy fire dude consumes fire for some effect, having fire available twice as often makes them tougher.
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Mathue Faulkner
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Austin
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You aren't really disadvantaged in 2p IMO. Honestly, it's easier to coordinate and create synergies between characters. You already have at least an entire round to take advantage of the element. I don't see why you need two just because it's 2p. There are going to be repercussions, for both Monsters and Heroes. It's not game breaking, but it is a pretty significant change. There is at least one class that is already crazy strong that you've significantly buffed with this variant.
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Brent Warner
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Belleville
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That's interesting, but I'm surprised you found it necessary. We almost always play with two players, but I don't see where the disadvantage is. The ways to use an element are

- Use one that was created by another player/enemy on the same turn earlier in the initiative order
- Use one that was created by another player/enemy/yourself on the previous turn

Having more players gives you slightly more opportunities to have someone else create an element for you, but they also give you more opportunities to have someone else consume an element that you were hoping to use. If you want to rely on having an element, you have to generate it and then consume it the next turn. We've played classes that make heavy use of elements in our two player game, and have relied almost entirely on the "create it this turn, use it next turn" strategy, and that has worked fine. I would expect that even with 4 players it would be very rare that you could coordinate a scenario where you need an element this turn and someone else is able to create it for you and guarantee that they will go before you.
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Matt Ziemer
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I think what is lacking more than time to utilize elements is a significant reward for the work it takes to pull it off. I need to spend multiple turns saving certain cards to get myself and allies and enemies in just the right position, severely limiting my options. Then I need to play certain cards, no matter what's going on, then the next turn i need to play certain more cards, no matter what's going on. Then if I manage to pull this all off successfully, arguably a huge feat, I get(in most cases) 1 bonus damage.

Don't get me wrong, I love gloomhaven and have even very much enjoyed the challenge of element dependent classes like
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the Elementalist
but I can definitely see where players would feel let down or disappointed in the reward for effort ratio of using elements.

With the above class for example, I can make a huge play and get 2 elements active in one turn, possibly doing nothing of conscequence to set it up, then consume both those elements in one turn which will get me a whopping atk 2 poison at rnge 2.

While it's prob not proper to compare, virtually every class starts with a lvl 1 range 3 atk 2, target 2 that requires no element consumption at all and is a better atk.

Like I said, im not trying to sound whiny but I can see why the OP feels like something needs to be done to fix the element consumption system.
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Mathue Faulkner
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meziemer wrote:
I think what is lacking more than time to utilize elements is a significant reward for the work it takes to pull it off. I need to spend multiple turns saving certain cards to get myself and allies and enemies in just the right position, severely limiting my options. Then I need to play certain cards, no matter what's going on, then the next turn i need to play certain more cards, no matter what's going on. Then if I manage to pull this all off successfully, arguably a huge feat, I get(in most cases) 1 bonus damage.

Don't get me wrong, I love gloomhaven and have even very much enjoyed the challenge of element dependent classes like
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the Elementalist
but I can definitely see where players would feel let down or disappointed in the reward for effort ratio of using elements.

With the above class for example, I can make a huge play and get 2 elements active in one turn, possibly doing nothing of conscequence to set it up, then consume both those elements in one turn which will get me a whopping atk 2 poison at rnge 2.

While it's prob not proper to compare, virtually every class starts with a lvl 1 range 3 atk 2, target 2 that requires no element consumption at all and is a better atk.

Like I said, im not trying to sound whiny but I can see why the OP feels like something needs to be done to fix the element consumption system.

Yeah, that's not necessarily worth it for a single damage....but there are combos that add A LOT more. There are also combos that don't take a lot of setup.
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Matt Ziemer
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mfaulk80 wrote:

Yeah, that's not necessarily worth it for a single damage....but there are combos that add A LOT more. There are also combos that don't take a lot of setup.


I think where element consumption becomes "worth it" and really shines is during more utility type actions. Ex: gain move +3, heal self during an atk, etc... These things are like gaining an extra action sometimes and can make a huge difference. When it comes to atking the enemy though, element consumption often feels very lack luster.
 
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Stefan
Germany
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meziemer wrote:
I think what is lacking more than time to utilize elements is a significant reward for the work it takes to pull it off. I need to spend multiple turns saving certain cards to get myself and allies and enemies in just the right position, severely limiting my options. Then I need to play certain cards, no matter what's going on, then the next turn i need to play certain more cards, no matter what's going on. Then if I manage to pull this all off successfully, arguably a huge feat, I get(in most cases) 1 bonus damage.

Don't get me wrong, I love gloomhaven and have even very much enjoyed the challenge of element dependent classes like
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the Elementalist
but I can definitely see where players would feel let down or disappointed in the reward for effort ratio of using elements.

With the above class for example, I can make a huge play and get 2 elements active in one turn, possibly doing nothing of conscequence to set it up, then consume both those elements in one turn which will get me a whopping atk 2 poison at rnge 2.

While it's prob not proper to compare, virtually every class starts with a lvl 1 range 3 atk 2, target 2 that requires no element consumption at all and is a better atk.

Like I said, im not trying to sound whiny but I can see why the OP feels like something needs to be done to fix the element consumption system.

1 Bonus damage is what I remember from the spellweaver cards for consuming any element. You don't need to set those up and reorder two of your turns just in order to play it. You do it the other way around and play that card when there is an element available and if not then you chose another one. Other bonus effects are very well worth a more precise planning.
 
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Fred Quimbey
United States
Santa Fe
New Mexico
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The issue I had with this is that if you need an element, with two players, more often than not you effectively have one turn to utilize them because they are already waning by the bext round. In a 4 player game, you almost always have the entire round to use them because you can have up to 3 players going before you. The issue I have is that without this you are essentially giving up part of the game at two players because the difficulty of using elements does not scale down to that player count.

It is a part of the game after all and not being able to experience it the same way you would at 4 players was a problem for us. Also, I'm not sure how having monsters that consume elements would be any more of an issue at 2 than it would be at 4 given that the elements don't begin to wane until the end of the round and having more opportunities for elements to for elements to be infused would make it even more likely for them to be consumed in a high player count game than it would be in a 2 player.
 
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Stefan
Germany
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coffeedude wrote:
The issue I had with this is that if you need an element, with two players, more often than not you effectively have one turn to utilize them because they are already waning by the bext round. In a 4 player game, you almost always have the entire round to use them because you can have up to 3 players going before you. The issue I have is that without this you are essentially giving up part of the game at two players because the difficulty of using elements does not scale down to that player count.

It is a part of the game after all and not being able to experience it the same way you would at 4 players was a problem for us. Also, I'm not sure how having monsters that consume elements would be any more of an issue at 2 than it would be at 4 given that the elements don't begin to wane until the end of the round and having more opportunities for elements to for elements to be infused would make it even more likely for them to be consumed in a high player count game than it would be in a 2 player.

I don't think that this is true, as you very very rarely have 2 or more characters in a group that can create or use the same elements and if that happens, then those two could also be in a 2 player group.

The issue with monsters would be, that if they create elements which none of you can consume, they would have 2 rounds to use them for their benefit instead of just one.

The element system is on purpose designed in this way that you have to use the elements quickly. If you long rest for example, you would under normal rules waste all elements, you created before.

If you want to houserule it, nobody will stop you. I just still don't see how this is dependent on the player count as what you describe is normal and happens also in my 4 player group.
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patrick mullen
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I don't necessarily agree, but I can see what the OP is saying. While the speed at which elements move is the same no matter the player count (you get this round and next to use it), with 4 players you may have more turns at which the element could be used.

But this is kind of moot since all it takes is a single use and the element is gone.

What you may be running into rather than the elements waning too fast, is a lack of element synergies in the 2 character party you are running. Four players will definitely give you more cards to have a higher chance of finding those synergies.

Rather than alter a system of the game that interacts with so many other things (and may break the game in unforseen ways later on), maybe it would be better to see if you can find two characters who help each other out with elements a bit more; or focus on generating more elements in your team when you level them up or enhance their cards. Just like some of the early actions don't work off each other that well, and your attack modifiers often don't benefit your big combos, as you level up you can improve these weaknesses of level 1 characters.
 
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