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Mythic Battles: Pantheon» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question - Search Deck - End of Deck rss

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Rich Radgoski
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An odd situation came up in our game tonight...

I used an Art of War card to do the maneuver - Search deck for a card... but I had no cards in my deck (I had drawn the last one to start my turn)

I think this meant that since I could not search my deck, it triggered the deck reset routine...

My opponents thought that since that maneuver did NOT specifically say 'draw' a card... and that the reset routine says "when you cannot draw a card" it meant that I couldn't execute the maneuver.

I think the 'draw' in inherently part of the search and put that card in your deck option ...

Thoughts??

 
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Martyn King
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Arkobla Conn wrote:
An odd situation came up in our game tonight...

I used an Art of War card to do the maneuver - Search deck for a card... but I had no cards in my deck (I had drawn the last one to start my turn)

I think this meant that since I could not search my deck, it triggered the deck reset routine...

My opponents thought that since that maneuver did NOT specifically say 'draw' a card... and that the reset routine says "when you cannot draw a card" it meant that I couldn't execute the maneuver.

I think the 'draw' in inherently part of the search and put that card in your deck option ...

Thoughts??



The discard pile is shuffled to form a new deck when you need to obtain a card when the deck is exhausted. By wanting to take this manoeuvre you are creating the requirement needed to reform your deck so you’ll Place your AOW card on the discard pile then shuffle your discard pile creating your new deck and draw 3 cards and then pick a card of your choice from your new deck. The other players will put the rest of their deck into their hands and shuffle their discards as well then and also draw 3 cards.
 
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sean lukie
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Actually... We had the exact same thing. We 'assume' the draw is part of the search. But, there is an argument to be had that you can't search an empty deck. I will want an official ruling on it, for now we will play it triggers the reset.
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D Conklin
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We had a similar situation, but even a little tricker:

Does Athena's Strategist "Search for 3 Cards" trigger a deck refresh?

A player only had 2 cards in their deck when he used Strategist. We went back and forth on if he had to take the 2 first, then trigger the refresh and search for the 3rd, or if he could refresh the deck right away and search for the 3 as normal.

We ruled he could refresh the deck...but I could see it going the other way too...
 
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Rich Radgoski
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and thus we are all stuck on the semantics of the Rule.... I thing Rule as intended is it triggers a refresh
 
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Becq
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Cerritos
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For what it's worth (possibly not much), I'd say that the reshuffle is triggered by needing to draw a card and being unable to, which occurs in both of the scenarios above (ie, I agree with Martyn). In D Conklin's case, I'd say the reshuffle is triggered by the need to take the third card, so the player would take the last two cards before needing to reshuffle, then take the third from the reshuffled deck.

As supporting argument for that last point, consider that you don't reshuffle until all of the cards from your deck have cycled through to your hand. If you shuffled *before* drawing those last two cards, then those two cards wouldn't have cycled to your hand during that first pass through your deck!
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Martyn King
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Becq wrote:
For what it's worth (possibly not much), I'd say that the reshuffle is triggered by needing to draw a card and being unable to, which occurs in both of the scenarios above (ie, I agree with Martyn). In D Conklin's case, I'd say the reshuffle is triggered by the need to take the third card, so the player would take the last two cards before needing to reshuffle, then take the third from the reshuffled deck.

As supporting argument for that last point, consider that you don't reshuffle until all of the cards from your deck have cycled through to your hand. If you shuffled *before* drawing those last two cards, then those two cards wouldn't have cycled to your hand during that first pass through your deck!


That’s how I’d play it also. Standard deck building rules.
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Michael Becker
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I don’t think it’s clear.
Search is not draw. I assume you are correct, but a clarification would be nice.
 
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Michael Becker
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Thought about this some more. What if you still have a substantial part of your deck left in the draw pile, but all the cards for one particular unit is have already been used?

It feels kind of wrong to trigger a shuffle in that case. My feeling is that the number of activation cards per unit is tor prevent that you activate the same unit over and over again.

If you look at, for example, the second scenario, it is extremely important if you can activate Zeus for a maximum of 4 times in row, or indefinitely.
 
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Michael Becker
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So, any responses to this?

Would „discard an art of war card to select a card from your remaining draw pile and put it in your hand“ be a correct and less ambiguous wording?
 
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D Conklin
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The question about search triggering refresh or not is in the FAQ list as severity "1" and Quirkworthy (employee of Mythic) has acknowledged the list and said they are working on it...

So we will have an official answer from the designer at some point...

(i hope)whistle
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Michael Becker
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This must have come up during playtest, it's not a rare thing. Actually regardless how it's ruled, it becomes part of your tactics.

Should be a simple thing to clarify for the designer.
 
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Dave Smith
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dc0nklin wrote:
We had a similar situation, but even a little tricker:

Does Athena's Strategist "Search for 3 Cards" trigger a deck refresh?

A player only had 2 cards in their deck when he used Strategist. We went back and forth on if he had to take the 2 first, then trigger the refresh and search for the 3rd, or if he could refresh the deck right away and search for the 3 as normal.

We ruled he could refresh the deck...but I could see it going the other way too...


You refresh only after there are no cards left to draw, so refresh after taking the remaining two cards.
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Dave Smith
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You can't go searching for a card you know is not there.
 
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Raph Moimoi
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Major Mishap wrote:
You can't go searching for a card you know is not there.


I hope this will be the official statement.
 
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D Conklin
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Official answer:


Quote:

Q: Does "search" trigger a "draw"?
If a search action allows for a search of more cards than are left in the deck, at what point is the deck refresh triggered?
A: When a player searches a card and they cannot draw any card, they have to shuffle their discard pile.
Each time there’s an interaction with an empty deck, the corresponding discard pile should be shuffled.


Just as everyone suspected, but nice to have it official.

Answers the OP's "no cards in deck" and my "not enough cards in deck" search questions.
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