Daniel D'Cotta
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I would like to get your opinions on whether this is an acceptable play style.

During the SR, I try to pass till everybody spent their cash, then I buy and sell other company shares.

This lowers their share price and moves shares from the IPO to the bank (so the company will receive less dividends).

Since they spent all their cash, they are not able to price protect their shares.

This was called a 'dick' move by some of those that I played with. And they said this causes a negative experience. Also, they said this delayed the game because the SR were longer.

Then, I think they tried to do the same to me, but I just passed when everyone had unspent cash and the SR ended. So they were not able to do it to me.

Is my play style un-sportsman-like?
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Chester
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What is to stop another player from selling share(s) to gain the flexibility to do something similar or to have cash for share protection when they see you doing this?

I think the other players need to learn how to neuter this tactic of yours. It’s not difficult. I think your play is legal and part of the game. If someone doesn’t like it, they should find a way within the rules to punish you for it. THEN you’re playing a more interesting game, with more weapons at hand.
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Cris Whetstone
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Just to clarify, if you have passed and then the other players all pass due to being out of cash then the SR would end. You wouldn't get the chance to make your moves.

That's obviously a defense against your play as well as the risk. You could essentially have a stock round without any moves for yourself.
 
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J C Lawrence
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SilentNSly wrote:
Is my play style un-sportsman-like?


No. Emptying the IPO of shares is pretty much a standard ritual in 1870 and friends. There's no reason to let the other players get that treasury income uncontested.

cornjob wrote:
I think the other players need to learn how to neuter this tactic of yours.


Bingo. That's the ticket.
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Daniel D'Cotta
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cornjob wrote:
What is to stop another player from selling share(s) to gain the flexibility to do something similar or to have cash for share protection when they see you doing this?


I usually, buy a share and immediately sell it. For them to price protect, they need to have unspent cash ready (and they do not get a chance to sell a share in response).

They could sell before I buy or keep unspent money, but they did not.


WetRock wrote:
Just to clarify, if you have passed and then the other players all pass due to being out of cash then the SR would end. You wouldn't get the chance to make your moves.


The moment the last other player who has enough cash to buy a share, buys a share, then I will not pass any more. Instead, I start buying and selling their company's shares.
 
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Julia
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Noch gibt es dies Land nur im Geiste, doch stehen wir wachsam bereit. Am Feuer erklingen die Lieder für eine bessere Zeit.
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SilentNSly wrote:
Is my play style un-sportsman-like?


Economic games require playing them at a level higher than Monopoly, so, I don't see much of an un-sportsman behaviour here, it's just that your buddies need to work harder on their strategy.

I'd suggest tho, if these guys are your friends, that you might debate strategy with them and where they fail at the game so that the overall experience becomes more relaxed (and challenging: having opponents at your very same level is more interesting than running solo)
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Guido Niewerth
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It´s part of the game and I don´t consider it unsportsmanlike behaviour at all. Most of the 18xx games have a steep learning curve though the rules are easy, and you have to learn how to deal with share dumping (and several other threats).
Your friends have some options :

- sell all of their shares as soon as you bought 20% or 30%. Now you are sitting on a dumped company with little cash in hand.
This can be an interesting mind game. Instead of floating the company you want to float you float another one. Once another player starts buying shares you sell all of your shares and float the company you really wanted to float. Now the dumper can´t dump your new company because his money is bound in shares he can´t sell.
- retain some money to be able to price protect one or two shares and simply pass, too. Since it´s all about relative money they do better with $200 in their hands at the beginning of an operation round than you with $500 unspent money.
- sell some shares on their own and make the company a yellow runner. This is something you really don´t want, so be careful when dumping.

Depending on the game phase the priority deal is far more important than a single share. Dumping and buying shares makes the player left to your left almost certainly first player in the next SR. In mid game when everyone is earning $$$ and is able to float a new company you want to be first to act in the next SR because you want to pick the best company to float. It´s not uncommon in a 4+ player game there´s no attractive company left to float when you´re last to act in a SR.
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Devin Smith
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SilentNSly wrote:

I usually, buy a share and immediately sell it. For them to price protect, they need to have unspent cash ready (and they do not get a chance to sell a share in response).


This implies you can only move them down one row--which is not at strong a play as you could be making by buying multiple shares in the company. In particular, you can dump them two rows by holding the first share for one loop around the table--perhaps provoking their sale of some other shares to cover their own company....
 
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Shawn Fox
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You frequently benefit the other players by selling their shares if they know what they are doing. In 1870 it is critical to get at least one company into the yellow share zone to increase your share holdings beyond the certificate limit. That company also holds it's payouts to buy trains for your other companies.

Also, by selling shares, you make them cheaper for other players to buy. That gives them better return on investment if they can take advantage of it, meaning that you lose the game, often badly.

All that said, it is also often important to sell other player's shares to change the company operating order rather than to just hurt their share value.
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Eric Hogue
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SilentNSly wrote:
I would like to get your opinions on whether this is an acceptable play style.

During the SR, I try to pass till everybody spent their cash, then I buy and sell other company shares.

This lowers their share price and moves shares from the IPO to the bank (so the company will receive less dividends).

Since they spent all their cash, they are not able to price protect their shares.

This was called a 'dick' move by some of those that I played with. And they said this causes a negative experience. Also, they said this delayed the game because the SR were longer.

Then, I think they tried to do the same to me, but I just passed when everyone had unspent cash and the SR ended. So they were not able to do it to me.

Is my play style un-sportsman-like?


Sportsman-like is a cultural thing, and no one in here can tell you what your group's culture is like. As everyone else has pointed out, your play is legal, and generally 18xx is not a game where sportsman-like is a consideration. However, if you don't discuss this with your group, you might find yourself on the outside of future games.

Instead, suggest counters. Point out that the share in the bank pool is available for redemption next turn, that you are giving up the priority deal, and that they have the option of not spending all of their money until you start spending yours. If they spend half of their money, and you spend nothing, they come out ahead of you.

In my local group, we have an agreement that we don't trash just to trash. It makes the game longer for little benefit (if everyone trashes, no gains much relatively). Trashing to take a quick profit, or change running order, or any other reason than simply lowering the price is accepted. I know that doesn't apply to the larger community, and if we ever have an outside visitor, I would take the time to explain this to them first. Ultimately, it's a game, and you play for the enjoyment as well as the challenge.
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J C Lawrence
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docshoe wrote:
- sell some shares on their own and make the company a yellow runner. This is something you really don´t want, so be careful when dumping.


True, that is a significant concern and especially in 1870-style games.

EricHogue wrote:
In my local group, we have an agreement that we don't trash just to trash. It makes the game longer for little benefit (if everyone trashes, no gains much relatively).


That turns out to not be true. Instead it accentuates other aspects of the game, especially those around income, capital management and the train rush -- and no, the players and companies are not equivalent on those scores.
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lychenus
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stock manipulation has always been a big part of the game. the most often way is to 'mistakenfully' buy some stocks wrong and then dump it back into the share market to make the price fall. if you had never thought of this, never done this, or disallow this you are missing a big part of the 1830 branch and the stock rounds. though i have seen local groups see this as disgraceful until i win a big share of the game playing long stock rounds, like i am the cheater.

this is not a voting game just to vote which company will top out the game.

though, one thing bad about stock manipulation is that buying the share and then dumping it each round is very unstoppable, particularly when your company is weak. making it even a weaker company or until it hits the stock chart floor. and you cant really hold dividends. if you do so the next round there would be another 'short' going on to make the price dive.

multiple player trying to attack a weak company buying and dumping shares could be deadly.

the stock round is well done in 1817. not just because there are shorting available, but such price dropping mechanism is resolved at the end of the stock round, not during the sell. that has minimize the effect of hostile dumping, and make it a lot more reasonable and bearable.


 
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lychenus
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above is a picture where CPR is going to float, with two 5T exposed i.e. ready to be bought, in 1830. of course there is a mistake done someone bought the last toxic 4T without getting a 5T, but at least it is fixed in the coming stock round.

without any explicitly discussion, one player decides to start buying shares and then dumping it into market immediately on the just float CPR, in order to secure his position to get at least one 5T. otherwise CPR would have gotten two, deadly and won. the other two players realized what is going on. waited until the first player to finish, and then the second player goes in buy everything and then dump it. the third player goes in, that resulted in a 9 stock position drop before the company even ran.

the CPR owner trump1816 is so mad that he cursed on chat. well the only reason he is mad is that he does not understand how stock round works and its potential. and he does not know the one simple trick to at least struggle.

the resulting price for CPR is then $20, way way below ipo. and the player is considered lost from that point

....and then said 1870 is going to be a better game because there is price protection..

well. welcome to 18xx.

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J C Lawrence
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I wrote on this a while back, though focused more heavily on 1830 and friends rather than 1870.
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Russell InGA
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lynnech wrote:
...
without any explicitly discussion, one player decides to start buying shares and then dumping it into market immediately on the just float CPR, in order to secure his position to get at least one 5T. ...


Just to be clear, 1830 (and most / all of the 18xx series) once you sell a share of a company during a particular Stock Round, you may not buy that company. The above could be read as meaning someone did this.
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Ben Foy
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1870 has mechanics to defend against share dumps. Also, if your company's shares do get sold, you can slowly buy the shares into your company or run the company into the yellow. I am not seeing how this is bad.
 
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Oedipussy Rex
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Agree with all of the above. But to answer the unasked question, yes, it's a dick move. No, it's not unsportsmanlike, but still a dick move. Then again, it's a dick game. If the other players have a problem with it, what are they doing playing 18xx?
 
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Eric Brosius
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My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
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This type of move is fundamental to 1830, just as so-called "dick moves" are fundamental to Diplomacy, Intrigue, and So Long Sucker. It's true that some people don't find this enjoyable. There are plenty of other games to play with those people. It's pretty much futile to try to play a game with someone if they don't enjoy it.

That doesn't mean they can't enjoy 18xx games. There are other games in the 18xx family that have much, much less of this sort of thing. You just need to be selective.
 
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