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Subject: Any news on AEG expansions? rss

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Enon Sci
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I know the designers were keen on expanding the latest version of the game, but last I checked (months back) things were still up in the air. Anything develop subsequently?

Just curious. I'm especially keen on the stealth oriented scenario (or even something entirely new).
 
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Stephen Saluga
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They just recently announced Lockdown as the first official expansion from AEG.
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Enon Sci
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FacelessYouth wrote:
They just recently announced Lockdown as the first official expansion from AEG.


Really? Where? In the forum, or elsewhere?

Any ETA?
 
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Stephen Saluga
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Anarchosyn wrote:
FacelessYouth wrote:
They just recently announced Lockdown as the first official expansion from AEG.


Really? Where? In the forum, or elsewhere?

Any ETA?


May 2018...so unfortunately still a ways off

https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/71718/first-hints-alderac...
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Ryan Dancey
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Note: Lockdown is not an expansion.

We have decided that each release in The Captain Is Dead line will be a complete game. You won't need any of the other games in the line to play each release.

(There may be promo cards and special promotional releases that break this pattern, of course.)
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Roger Meertens
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rsdancey wrote:
Note: Lockdown is not an expansion.

We have decided that each release in The Captain Is Dead line will be a complete game. You won't need any of the other games in the line to play each release.

(There may be promo cards and special promotional releases that break this pattern, of course.)


Too bad, because that would mean an extra board, skill cards and pawns (plus stands) if I would want to buy Lockdown as well. And the game would be a lot more expensive than when it would have been released as "just an expansion"...
I guess that AEG will be missing out on a lot of potential buyers this way. In my view most people willing to buy Lockdown would be the ones that already own the basegame. If Lockdown is sold this way, I'm not going to buy it. That's a lot of resources wasted. Maybe even worse than the Legacy concept since there would be a lot of stuff you didn't even get to use at all because so much is double in both games that way wowsurpriserobotzombie
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Ryan Dancey
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You'll get a new board, new standees, new cards, a new rulebook, etc. It's not The Captain is Dead with a different Encounter deck.
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Gillum the Stoor
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New crew also? Maybe even ... a captain?
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rsdancey wrote:
You'll get a new board, new standees, new cards, a new rulebook, etc. It's not The Captain is Dead with a different Encounter deck.


Can we take this to imply the AEG version of Lockdown will be different in many respects from the original (version of this expansion, I mean)?
 
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Ryan Dancey
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It is an episode about escaping from prison while dealing with patrolling aliens. The basic rules from the original version of the expansion are mostly unchanged.

It will have a new board, new standees, various new components, a new rulebook, etc.
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CardBoard Bear

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yeah I don't know what's up with the designer's weird choice about duplicating materials. I backed the kickstarter's ep3 and the new standees were entirely unnecessary. I think that helped drive the price of ep3 to something I realized, after playing, to be out of line with the content you got (very little). I think I spent more time assembling the new ep3 standees than playing ep3.

In the end I thought ep3 was rather tedious and I would not care for it if it was free. It was so bad it left a poor taste in my mouth and I haven't touched ep1 in quite a while, kind of silly of me since ep1 was rather entertaining!



littlebrothertimmy wrote:
rsdancey wrote:
Note: Lockdown is not an expansion.

We have decided that each release in The Captain Is Dead line will be a complete game. You won't need any of the other games in the line to play each release.

(There may be promo cards and special promotional releases that break this pattern, of course.)


Too bad, because that would mean an extra board, skill cards and pawns (plus stands) if I would want to buy Lockdown as well. And the game would be a lot more expensive than when it would have been released as "just an expansion"...
I guess that AEG will be missing out on a lot of potential buyers this way. In my view most people willing to buy Lockdown would be the ones that already own the basegame. If Lockdown is sold this way, I'm not going to buy it. That's a lot of resources wasted. Maybe even worse than the Legacy concept since there would be a lot of stuff you didn't even get to use at all because so much is double in both games that way wowsurpriserobotzombie
 
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Craig Somerton
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CardBear wrote:
yeah I don't know what's up with the designer's weird choice about duplicating materials. I backed the kickstarter's ep3 and the new standees were entirely unnecessary. I think that helped drive the price of ep3 to something I realized, after playing, to be out of line with the content you got (very little). I think I spent more time assembling the new ep3 standees than playing ep3.

In the end I thought ep3 was rather tedious and I would not care for it if it was free. It was so bad it left a poor taste in my mouth and I haven't touched ep1 in quite a while, kind of silly of me since ep1 was rather entertaining!


Opinions will undoubtedly vary. I quite enjoyed Ep3 as it was quite a departure from the standard play and forced us to think and play in different ways.

I can understand why AEG would have chosen the stand alone path. A stand alone game has the potential to attract a wide range of people who may be attracted to the theme or game play, whereas an expansion is only ever attractive to those who already have the base game, and even then, only a small number of existing owners of the base game will ever feel compelled to buy an expansion.

While it may appear wasteful to us, stand alone just makes far more economic sense.
 
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CardBoard Bear

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anomander64 wrote:
While it may appear wasteful to us, stand alone just makes far more economic sense.


not necessarily. for example, Catacombs has plenty of expansions, it would be absurd if they asked you to rebuy the base game for each of them.

I think expansion vs stand alone sequel should be based on the amount of content, and the extra cost added.

for ep3, you may like the content while I don't, but I think if you compare it with similarly price games, a lot of good games have a lot more content for that price. that is why I think it should not have been a stand alone, and in fact, it wasn't.

ep3 still required you to have the base game in order to play it. yet it duplicated all standees. so it was an extra cost to existing customers, for no benefit in gaining new customers.

a good game grows more by word of mouth than by accidentally finding new customers. word of mouth originates by existing happy customers who recommend the game and talk about it.

anyway, I don't really care what they do about ep3.shakeninja I'm just here to complain about it as I was very disappointed with it whistle
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Gerald
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So there will be a new standalone base game? I guess that just lost a sale with me. I'd rather have it be expansion materials rather than of an entire new set of game materials. I don't have space (Hah!) to support those kind of business decisions.
 
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Jacob Ewing
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I would much rather just have an expansion as well instead of a brand new game. I feel like there is a lot of empty space in the original box. I was very much excited because I thought i'd get to fill it with expansions. My game group really digs this game and an expansion would really keep it going for us. I don't see why AEG can't do both an expansion for the original and come out with a new standalone game?
 
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Yan Bertrand
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Same here - I don't understand this choice. It actually makes the old edition more attractive than the new one, as far as I'm concerned. If I can find it in Europe, I'm very susceptible to jumping to the old edition and reselling my new one. Which is a bit of a bummer, in a sense.

I have to disagree with the claimed economical logic. Lots of games just go ahead and have expansions. The main claimed "limitation" (or "least positive point") I see in reviews of this game is its limited variety after several plays. Getting an expansion typically fixes this, and that's a very good move. Issuing a standalone game defeats this purpose, however, and the extra cost typically would limit the amount of fans who'll keep going with the series.
I fail to understand how making Lockdown a standalone game could attract more players to the "series", mostly because it simply offers the same thing on paper: a coop game that sounds like "Trek" in the feel, with Pandemic-like regular pressure, and a lot of side takes on the formula, offering lotsof different characters. And a specific art style (that I personally appreciate). The rest? In a purchase decision, it's bound to be secondary,to be honest. If you weren't attracted to this game because of the coop aspect, or because of the theme, I don't see why you'd get Lockdown, unless you're a "prison break" fan or something?
But maybe I'm missing something. Is there something in Lockdown that changes its sale speech from The Captain is Dead?
 
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Ryan Dancey
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Nobody who didn't by Episode 1 will buy Episode 2 as an expansion. So the universe of potential customers is forever fixed, and smaller. Perhaps there are some people who would buy Episode 1 and 2 at the same time, but they represent a fairly small cohort.

This pattern obtains across every game we have ever published in over 20+ years of time. Expansions are a fraction of the base.

By making Episode 2 its own game there's a chance that we'll get a lot of the people who bought Episode 1 AND a new cohort who buy just Episode 2 because "it's a stand alone game". They don't even need to really know there WAS an Episode 1. Episode 2 will likely get a bigger footprint on release in many stores because Episode 1 sold well and retailers like to bandwagon. A bigger shelf presence at launch means more people who are buying "what is new this week" will see and engage with the game.

It is possible that Episode 2 will sell more units than Episode 1.

But the economics of the industry make it waaaaaaaaay better to sell it as a $50 stand alone than as a $30 expansion. AEG makes about 40% of the MSRP when we sell a game through the wholesale system, which is where 95% of our games are sold. So we make about $12 on a $30 expansion, and about $20 on a $50 stand-alone. Our cost of goods on that $12 expansion might be $3, but our cost of goods on the $50 stand-alone are going to be about $5. So our gross on the former is about $9, and our gross on the latter is $15. We'd have to sell almost twice as many expansion units to generate the same cashflow as stand alone units.

Will we sell more than 1/2 as many stand alone games as we'd sell an "expansion" version? It's hard to believe the answer is "no".

So why don't publishers do that for every game? Why do any games have expansions? Because normally expansion content REQUIRES the base game. It would be really hard to sell a Mystic Vale 2 stand alone game that anyone would value, for example.

The Captain is Dead is a special game because it tells a self-contained story, and part of the joy of the game is the components matching that story. We think Lockdown is just way more fun when played in a prison than when played on the ship from Episode 1. We think it's more fun to have complete sets of matching cards and not have to sort cards into and out of a base game to play Episode 1 or 2. Selling Lockdown as a stand-alone game makes sense because the value you get from it is high.
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rsdancey wrote:
Nobody who didn't by Episode 1 will buy Episode 2 as an expansion. So the universe of potential customers is forever fixed, and smaller. Perhaps there are some people who would buy Episode 1 and 2 at the same time, but they represent a fairly small cohort.

This pattern obtains across every game we have ever published in over 20+ years of time. Expansions are a fraction of the base.

By making Episode 2 its own game there's a chance that we'll get a lot of the people who bought Episode 1 AND a new cohort who buy just Episode 2 because "it's a stand alone game". They don't even need to really know there WAS an Episode 1. Episode 2 will likely get a bigger footprint on release in many stores because Episode 1 sold well and retailers like to bandwagon. A bigger shelf presence at launch means more people who are buying "what is new this week" will see and engage with the game.

It is possible that Episode 2 will sell more units than Episode 1.

But the economics of the industry make it waaaaaaaaay better to sell it as a $50 stand alone than as a $30 expansion. AEG makes about 40% of the MSRP when we sell a game through the wholesale system, which is where 95% of our games are sold. So we make about $12 on a $20 expansion, and about $20 on a $50 stand-alone. Our cost of goods on that $12 expansion might be $3, but our cost of goods on the $50 stand-alone are going to be about $5. So our gross on the former is about $9, and our gross on the latter is $15. We'd have to sell almost twice as many expansion units to generate the same cashflow as stand alone units.

Will we sell more than 1/2 as many stand alone games as we'd sell an "expansion" version? It's hard to believe the answer is "no".

So why don't publishers do that for every game? Why do any games have expansions? Because normally expansion content REQUIRES the base game. It would be really hard to sell a Mystic Vale 2 stand alone game that anyone would value, for example.

The Captain is Dead is a special game because it tells a self-contained story, and part of the joy of the game is the components matching that story. We think Lockdown is just way more fun when played in a prison than when played on the ship from Episode 1. We think it's more fun to have complete sets of matching cards and not have to sort cards into and out of a base game to play Episode 1 or 2. Selling Lockdown as a stand-alone game makes sense because the value you get from it is high.


For what it's worth, I completely agree.
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Yan Bertrand
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Thanks to you both for sharing your analysis. I had indeed completely disregarded the impact of a bigger shelf space, and the trend to "buy among the most recent things". Interesting thoughts!
I'll keep watching. I'm curious to see how things go. (It doesn't change anything for my own path, but it's interesting nonetheless.)
 
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Tom
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Yeah, that was an interesting analysis. Thanks for sharing.
 
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That was an awesome breakdown from both a monetary, customer engagement, and thematic point of view. I was sort of agreeing with the naysayers regarding questioning why it wasn't an expansion and now based on your post I completely understand why you are going in this direction. My wife and I love the captain is dead and I cannot wait to get my hands on the next episode. Thanks.
 
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James Turner
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FYI, the Miniature Market preorder page for Lockdown states that The Captain Is Dead is required for play and that it is explicitly NOT a stand-alone game. If this isn't the case, it might be good to correct them.
 
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Ryan Dancey
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That's what happens when outlets start selling games before they're solicited. They make mistakes.

The GAMA Trade Show is next week. We'll be talking about our whole 2018 line up at that show so quality information will be available to the outlets that require it.
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rsdancey wrote:
That's what happens when outlets start selling games before they're solicited. They make mistakes.

The GAMA Trade Show is next week. We'll be talking about our whole 2018 line up at that show so quality information will be available to the outlets that require it.


Did any news about the new Captain is Dead expansion come out at gama?
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rsdancey wrote:
Nobody who didn't by Episode 1 will buy Episode 2 as an expansion. So the universe of potential customers is forever fixed, and smaller. Perhaps there are some people who would buy Episode 1 and 2 at the same time, but they represent a fairly small cohort.

This pattern obtains across every game we have ever published in over 20+ years of time. Expansions are a fraction of the base.

By making Episode 2 its own game there's a chance that we'll get a lot of the people who bought Episode 1 AND a new cohort who buy just Episode 2 because "it's a stand alone game". They don't even need to really know there WAS an Episode 1. Episode 2 will likely get a bigger footprint on release in many stores because Episode 1 sold well and retailers like to bandwagon. A bigger shelf presence at launch means more people who are buying "what is new this week" will see and engage with the game.

It is possible that Episode 2 will sell more units than Episode 1.

But the economics of the industry make it waaaaaaaaay better to sell it as a $50 stand alone than as a $30 expansion. AEG makes about 40% of the MSRP when we sell a game through the wholesale system, which is where 95% of our games are sold. So we make about $12 on a $30 expansion, and about $20 on a $50 stand-alone. Our cost of goods on that $12 expansion might be $3, but our cost of goods on the $50 stand-alone are going to be about $5. So our gross on the former is about $9, and our gross on the latter is $15. We'd have to sell almost twice as many expansion units to generate the same cashflow as stand alone units.

Will we sell more than 1/2 as many stand alone games as we'd sell an "expansion" version? It's hard to believe the answer is "no".

So why don't publishers do that for every game? Why do any games have expansions? Because normally expansion content REQUIRES the base game. It would be really hard to sell a Mystic Vale 2 stand alone game that anyone would value, for example.

The Captain is Dead is a special game because it tells a self-contained story, and part of the joy of the game is the components matching that story. We think Lockdown is just way more fun when played in a prison than when played on the ship from Episode 1. We think it's more fun to have complete sets of matching cards and not have to sort cards into and out of a base game to play Episode 1 or 2. Selling Lockdown as a stand-alone game makes sense because the value you get from it is high.


I just wanted to comment how much I appreciate your candid analysis here. As a consumer, it's easy to forget that publishing games is first and foremost a business, and you've divulged the business side of the decisions made while still respecting the value to the consumer. Just not the sort of honest yet respectful response I see very often. Looking forward to Aug 15th now.
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