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Subject: Late Pledge now available (link below) rss

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N Jones
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Same cost & rewards as KS campaign!

https://root-a-game-of-woodland-might-and-right.backerkit.co...

Root: Core Box (Riverfolk Expansion Included) - $60
Root Logo T-Shirt - Men's - $20
Root Logo T-Shirt - Women's - $20
Raccoon Plush Collectible - $20
Unsigned Art Prints - $40

Shipping added depending on region.

From KS Update
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2074786394/root-a-game-...
Quote:
Late Orders
For those who had card difficulties or missed the initial campaign, you can now make your order on BackerKit. The GREAT news is that those who make late orders will ALSO be entitled to receiving the Riverfolk expansion with the core game of Root.

We take pride in not offering Kickstarter exclusive content and every upgrade and stretch goal unlocked from the campaign applies to all printed copies of Root.

When Will Pre-Orders Close?
Tentatively, we’re saying Tuesday, May 1st, 2018 is the deadline for late pledges.

Address changes will still be possible and we can always assist you up until we begin fulfillment.


Edit: Added deadline details from KS.
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David M
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Really cool that this is available for late backers.

I'm a Kickstarter backer, but I disagree with the fact that all the pre-order rewards the same price as the KS campaign, and there are no KS exclusive extras.

What's the incentive to back on KS? You're asking me to take a risk with my money and giving no reasons for doing so in return.

I think it's dangerous to take backers for granted like this.
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Eric Brosius
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The idea behind Kickstarter is to allow people to support a project that they really believe in, because they want to see it go forward. Many of us who backed it on Kickstarter did so because we believed in Cole's vision, and not because we were hoping that people who didn't back it would get poorer treatment.
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David M
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Eric Brosius wrote:
The idea behind Kickstarter is to allow people to support a project that they really believe in, because they want to see it go forward.


Agreed, that's why I backed it too.

Eric Brosius wrote:
Many of us who backed it on Kickstarter did so because we believed in Cole's vision, and not because we were hoping that people who didn't back it would get poorer treatment.


That's assuming that KS is like any other store. It's not. You take a risk with your money to back a project that doesn't yet exist. It's not about others being "poorer". It's about being rewarded for the risk you're taking.

Equality and fairness are not the same thing. See: https://seanet2.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/equity-vs-equali...
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Mikko Saari
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I still don't have any issues with late pledges getting the same rewards for the same costs. I think it's quite fair. Do what you wish others would do unto you – I'd like to get late pledges at the same cost myself, so why not grant it for others?
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Anna Shields
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Surely people who pre-order in this way take a similar risk—unless you think they are more likely to get a refund if the game never ships.

If you think a game you back on Kickstarter is likely never to ship, you’re either a philanthropist, a gambler, or a fool (and I don’t see much of a case for being a competent gambler). In the first two cases, you should assume that the people who pre-order with the same amount of information you have are also philanthropists or gamblers (although not necessarily the same one as you). I see no reason to cover the third case.

If, on the other hand, you back and you think the game is likely to ship, then what risk are you taking compared to the people who pre-order before the initial shipments? If the project doesn’t fund, you have lost nothing. If the project does fund, you are undertaking the same risks of delay, poor quality, and/or fraud tha someone with a pre-order does—unless they are able to use the terms of the pre-order later to gain some advantage in those situations that you are not.

I choose to believe that the people who ran this Kickstarter and pre-order are competent and act in good faith. That may make me a fool, but if you assume the contrary, why are we discussing this at all?

(I will add that from the publisher’s perspective, those who back the Kickstarter may deserve something special as a token of the publisher’s gratitude for helping to get the project off the ground. But we might equally suppose that the people who pre-order deserve something special for ordering directly from the publisher at a rate that gives them a higher profit margin. Should those who pre-order then get a different special token of gratitude?)

Edit: It occurs to me that you might be upset about the language “Kickstarter exclusive”. In that case, either you and the project-runner have different definitions or they act (at least in some part) in bad faith. Both options are regrettable, but don’t seem to have anything to do with the general argument under examination here.
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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Given that the game has not been actually produced yet, late pledgers are taking the same “risk” as Kickstarter backers, and arguably more as they don’t have Kickstarter’s completion guarantee in a direct transaction with the game publisher.
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David M
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msaari wrote:
I still don't have any issues with late pledges getting the same rewards for the same costs. I think it's quite fair. Do what you wish others would do unto you – I'd like to get late pledges at the same cost myself, so why not grant it for others?


What I'd like done unto me: I like to receive incentives for backing on Kickstarter, so that's what I wish for others too. I guess we want different things.
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David M
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Santiago wrote:
Given that the game has not been actually produced yet, late pledgers are taking the same “risk” as Kickstarter backers, and arguably more as they don’t have Kickstarter’s completion guarantee in a direct transaction with the game publisher.


That's a fair point -- I can see that late-pledgers are also taking a risk, and so there should be some kind of incentive for them too.

As a Kickstarter backer, I was one of those who made sure the project could take place. I think that should count for something.
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David M
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apcshields wrote:
I will add that from the publisher’s perspective, those who back the Kickstarter may deserve something special as a token of the publisher’s gratitude for helping to get the project off the ground. But we might equally suppose that the people who pre-order deserve something special for ordering directly from the publisher at a rate that gives them a higher profit margin. Should those who pre-order then get a different special token of gratitude?


I agree with the thrust of what you're saying here, and yes pre-orders should receive recognition too, albeit at a different level.

apcshields wrote:
Edit: It occurs to me that you might be upset about the language “Kickstarter exclusive”. In that case, either you and the project-runner have different definitions or they act (at least in some part) in bad faith. Both options are regrettable, but don’t seem to have anything to do with the general argument under examination here.


I'm confused about what you're saying here, though interested, so do explain more.

In response to your general comment, I have backed a good number of Kickstarter projects, always in good faith, and there have been some that never shipped. Backing a Kickstarter is a risk.
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Roel van der Hoorn
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davymast wrote:
I'm a Kickstarter backer, but I disagree with the fact that all the pre-order rewards the same price as the KS campaign, and there are no KS exclusive extras.

How does it influence your life what someone else gets? The only question you need to ask in a Kickstarter is whether what they offer you is adequate for the investment you make.

davymast wrote:
What's the incentive to back on KS?

You like the game to get published.
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David M
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RvdH83 wrote:

How does it influence your life what someone else gets?


So you would have no issue if late backers got the game for $20 than backers?

RvdH83 wrote:
The only question you need to ask in a Kickstarter is whether what they offer you is adequate for the investment you make.


Sure, but when I see late backers getting an equivalent reward for the same price it makes me wonder whether it was a fair exchange for the level of risk I took.
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Matt R
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Thanks to this post I was able to get in on this! Thank you so much!

As for backing this, had I known about this being a thing on KS then I would have backed it. I didn't learn about this until a couple of days after the KS ended.

I've backed a few things on KS and I couldn't care less if others are able to get in on the same "deal" as the backers after the KS campaign is over.
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Chris Laudermilk
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Now that this option is available, I'll likely jump in as a late backer. I found out about the campaign late in its run and had a few others already going & charging at the time. I waffled on Root and ultimately decided I'd need to wait on it. The late pledge timeframe works for me.

On the other side of the coin, for those other games I did back, I really don't mind at all that some have a similar late backer option. It doesn't hurt me any that some people now have the opportunity to jump in. In fact, it could benefit me where the creators decide to include late backer's pledges in the SG total, thus opening up more stuff for everyone.

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Paul Bach
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davymast wrote:
Eric Brosius wrote:
The idea behind Kickstarter is to allow people to support a project that they really believe in, because they want to see it go forward.


Agreed, that's why I backed it too.

Eric Brosius wrote:
Many of us who backed it on Kickstarter did so because we believed in Cole's vision, and not because we were hoping that people who didn't back it would get poorer treatment.


That's assuming that KS is like any other store. It's not. You take a risk with your money to back a project that doesn't yet exist. It's not about others being "poorer". It's about being rewarded for the risk you're taking.

Equality and fairness are not the same thing. See: https://seanet2.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/equity-vs-equali...


As KS does not charge unless a project is funded, late bakers are taking the same risks that people who pledged during the campaign, as they are putting up money toward the same production run.

If your complaint is about stuff showing up in a retail release (not a stores KS pledge for units, but an actual retail release,) your argument has some justification. I don’t agree with it, but to each, his own.
 
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Very nice. As a KS backer, I appreciate the equitable treatment of the late backers. I've viewed KS as a way to support creative people who otherwise wouldn't be able to produce things I like, not as a way to secure something others can't have.
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David M
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pygamer wrote:
Very nice. As a KS backer, I appreciate the equitable treatment of the late backers. I've viewed KS as a way to support creative people who otherwise wouldn't be able to produce things I like, not as a way to secure something others can't have.


I agree, but equitable doesn't mean being treated the same. There is a cost to taking risks (hence the interest rates on loans), this cost of risk should be reflected in the price paid by (or rewards given to) KS backers. Ignoring this may feel noble/equitable, but in truth it's not.

Now of course you could argue that you willingly shoulder the risk and don't want the risk to be reflected in the price you pay. That's a fair position to take, but KS creators who ask their backers to take this position should be aware of what they're asking.

It's not wrong to reward backers for the risk they take. It's actually the right thing to do.
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Mikko Saari
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davymast wrote:
So you would have no issue if late backers got the game for $20 than backers?


Yeah, that would be unfair. But having the late backers pay $20 more would also be unfair, since the risks are pretty much the same for early pledgers and late backers. If you don't feel that way, do explain the difference in the risks KS backers and late backers face.

Quote:
Sure, but when I see late backers getting an equivalent reward for the same price it makes me wonder whether it was a fair exchange for the level of risk I took.


If you feel so, then why not wait for the late backing option if that feels like a more fair exchange? Why back in the first place, especially in a campaign like this where the funding is guaranteed right away? If you don't like the reward for the risk, why participate, when you can back late.
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David M
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msaari wrote:
If you feel so, then why not wait for the late backing option if that feels like a more fair exchange? Why back in the first place, especially in a campaign like this where the funding is guaranteed right away? If you don't like the reward for the risk, why participate, when you can back late.


That's a fair point, but it only works if the creator has already stated the price will be the same for late backers (which could be the case with Root, I don't know). In my view, it's fair to assume that waiting and being a late backer will be more costly, because that's the fair way to organise a Kickstarter. Early backers shoulder a greater level of uncertainty.
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David M
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From what I'm reading of this thread, I think people are saying one of two things:

1. "I don't understand that there's a cost associated with risk taking." This would be a strange position for a boardgamer to take.

Or:

2. "I understand that there's a cost associated with risk taking, and I wish to ignore it in this instance." That's a valid position to take, but surely you can appreciate that others might see it differently?
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Patrick Leder
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I will chime in with that we had nearly 100 people fail to make payment and not notice in time. Their pledges were canceled. It took money off the top of the project. Knowing Root's commercial success is already established I'm not too worried about that, but why wouldn't I try to help some of those people, many of them asked me directly for help.

Obviously people missed the original window and I agree they are taking the same risks.

Marketing wise its a lot easier to ask someone to complete a sale at the moment over asking someone to help us out 6 months from now.

It also gives me something to promote at conventions, which has been proven to make conventions more cost effective. PAX Unplugged for instance would have been a net loss, were it not for Vast's Backerkit and Root's Kickstarter. Going to conventions though facilitates a larger audience down the road and helps people learn how to play the game which builds longer term success.

I know all this sounds like me grubbing for money but a steady cash flow brings us the security to do additional things while we move forward. Thanks for your concern.
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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davymast wrote:
From what I'm reading of this thread, I think people are saying one of two things:

1. "I don't understand that there's a cost associated with risk taking." This would be a strange position for a boardgamer to take.

Or:

2. "I understand that there's a cost associated with risk taking, and I wish to ignore it in this instance." That's a valid position to take, but surely you can appreciate that others might see it differently?


Please describe the exact risk taken by Kickstarter backers which is not being taken by post-Kickstarter preorders.
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Paul Bach
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Santiago wrote:
davymast wrote:
From what I'm reading of this thread, I think people are saying one of two things:

1. "I don't understand that there's a cost associated with risk taking." This would be a strange position for a boardgamer to take.

Or:

2. "I understand that there's a cost associated with risk taking, and I wish to ignore it in this instance." That's a valid position to take, but surely you can appreciate that others might see it differently?


Please describe the exact risk taken by Kickstarter backers which is not being taken by post-Kickstarter preorders.


Seconded.
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David M
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Santiago wrote:
davymast wrote:
From what I'm reading of this thread, I think people are saying one of two things:

1. "I don't understand that there's a cost associated with risk taking." This would be a strange position for a boardgamer to take.

Or:

2. "I understand that there's a cost associated with risk taking, and I wish to ignore it in this instance." That's a valid position to take, but surely you can appreciate that others might see it differently?


Please describe the exact risk taken by Kickstarter backers which is not being taken by post-Kickstarter preorders.


Simply this: Pre-orders have a stronger legal right to refunds should the product fail to ship, or be not as described.
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David M
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GreenM wrote:
I know all this sounds like me grubbing for money but a steady cash flow brings us the security to do additional things while we move forward. Thanks for your concern.


I don't have any issue with people being given the option to make preorders after the KS has closed. My concern is around pre-order customers having the same terms as original KS backers, because original KS backers are shouldering a greater level of risk. Backerkit recognise that this is an issue and offer recommendations in this respect.

Edit: Edited for clarity as some read previous version as me seeing KS as a pre-order system.
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