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Subject: Zelf rss

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Randal Clark
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So I assume that you still pay the one or 3 coal for Zelf and then you get one extra resource from that room thus gaining either 3 or 4 items respectively. It was not clear from the rules.
 
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Dustin Schwartz
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Zelf functions exactly like an elf, with the following exceptions:
* he produces 1 more material than normal
* he can only be assigned to the Fabric, Wood, or Metal Shops
* he is returned to the Reindeer Stable at round's end

So yes — you still must pay the required coal cost when assigning him.
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Keith Ferguson
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Yep...what Dustin said.
 
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Kiran Wagle
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I have to say, I missed the point of this guy. He isn't an extra worker, so you get a couple of victory points and gamble on having an open space in which to use him. You can't even save him for the next round.
 
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Keith Ferguson
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KWagle wrote:
I have to say, I missed the point of this guy. He isn't an extra worker, so you get a couple of victory points and gamble on having an open space in which to use him. You can't even save him for the next round.


Well, he is also already "trained" in all of the materials, so you get an extra wood, metal or fabric when you use him in those rooms. His capabilities were scaled back a bit, though, because I didn't want him to be an automatic "take every round" kind of action.
 
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Nathaniel Todd
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So the Zelf does act as an extra worker on the round he is acquired? We found the rules ambiguous and played him along with an elf, just providing one extra resource than the elf would have earned alone. If he is played as a temporary extra worker then he is considerably better than we thought. In fact, way better than the stable spaces that just give one resource of a specific type.
 
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Kiran Wagle
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fadeproofvision wrote:
So the Zelf does act as an extra worker on the round he is acquired?


He's not an *extra* worker, he replaces the worker you used to get him. And since he can only be used in the workshops, with enough players you might not get to use him at all. That happened in our game and nobody else bothered to take him.
 
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Laura Gerard
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I think he is an extra worker. You don't use him the same turn as the worker you used to get him. And everybody takes turn until they don't have any elves left. So you still get all your turns with your remaining elves and a Zelf turn. If you take Zelf, you get an extra turn unless the rooms he can go in are full.
 
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Keith Ferguson
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Guess I never really responded to this - but yes, Laura you are correct. You use one of your regular elves to feed the reindeer - in this case, Donner. When you do that, Zelf comes to your player mat.

Just like the rest of the game, you then have to wait until everyone else takes another turn placing one of their elves, and then you can place Zelf - or any of your remaining elves, if you want to keep Zelf for later. But remember, he'll only work in the fabric, metal or wood shop...so the longer you wait to use him, the greater the chances that someone else will take those spots with their elves. (Kiran pointed out that potential pitfall two messages upthread).

Of course, if you are the last in turn order, and you get Zelf with your last regular elf, you would then immediately use Zelf, as no one else would have any of their elves left.

Hope that clears things up.
 
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Kiran Wagle
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rainbowrose wrote:
I think he is an extra worker. You don't use him the same turn as the worker you used to get him. And everybody takes turn until they don't have any elves left. So you still get all your turns with your remaining elves and a Zelf turn. If you take Zelf, you get an extra turn unless the rooms he can go in are full.


He's not an extra worker because you trade one of your regular workers for him. The action you take with Zelf is the same action you could take with the elf you traded for Zelf. The turn you take to *get* Zelf doesn't get you anything but maybe some cookies, so aside from the extra good, Zelf just delays your use of an elf by one turn. It's the equivalent of passing for one turn and then taking an action the next turn.
 
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Keith Ferguson
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KWagle wrote:
rainbowrose wrote:
I think he is an extra worker. You don't use him the same turn as the worker you used to get him. And everybody takes turn until they don't have any elves left. So you still get all your turns with your remaining elves and a Zelf turn. If you take Zelf, you get an extra turn unless the rooms he can go in are full.


He's not an extra worker because you trade one of your regular workers for him. The action you take with Zelf is the same action you could take with the elf you traded for Zelf. The turn you take to *get* Zelf doesn't get you anything but maybe some cookies, so aside from the extra good, Zelf just delays your use of an elf by one turn. It's the equivalent of passing for one turn and then taking an action the next turn.


Don't forget that Zelf gets a +1 in all of the material generating rooms. Well, except for plastic.
 
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Laura Gerard
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KWagle wrote:
rainbowrose wrote:
I think he is an extra worker. You don't use him the same turn as the worker you used to get him. And everybody takes turn until they don't have any elves left. So you still get all your turns with your remaining elves and a Zelf turn. If you take Zelf, you get an extra turn unless the rooms he can go in are full.


He's not an extra worker because you trade one of your regular workers for him. The action you take with Zelf is the same action you could take with the elf you traded for Zelf. The turn you take to *get* Zelf doesn't get you anything but maybe some cookies, so aside from the extra good, Zelf just delays your use of an elf by one turn. It's the equivalent of passing for one turn and then taking an action the next turn.


Well you can look at it that way if you want.

But placing a elf to get cookies and Zelf is a turn. And placing Zelf is a turn. Why wouldn't you count both of them as turns? The first happens on your turn. The second happens on your turn. That's why they are called turns. Which one aren't you counting?

And the elf you place to get cookies and Zelf is a worker. He or she does work taking care of the reindeer which Santa rewards with cookie points. Zelf is a worker because he goes and works in the crafting rooms and does work for you. Both are workers. Why wouldn't you count both of them? Which one aren't you counting?
 
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Kiran Wagle
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rainbowrose wrote:

But placing a elf to get cookies and Zelf is a turn. And placing Zelf is a turn. Why wouldn't you count both of them as turns? The first happens on your turn. The second happens on your turn. That's why they are called turns. Which one aren't you counting?


I'm not counting the turn that uses a worker to get a worker. That's like trading $1 for $1. Afterwards, you will have $1.

And remember that you might not get to use Zelf at all.

There aren't always cookies. If there aren't any cookies, all you've done is delay the action you take with Zelf. Why didn't you just take that action with the elf you used to get Zelf.
 
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Keith Ferguson
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KWagle wrote:


There aren't always cookies. If there aren't any cookies, all you've done is delay the action you take with Zelf. Why didn't you just take that action with the elf you used to get Zelf.


You will always get at least 1 cookie if you get Zelf, by virtue of the fact that you can't feed reindeer who have no cookies. If a reindeer has no cookies, then someone else has already fed them this turn (and in this case, would already have Zelf).

And yeah, you might not get to use him...in playtesting he could originally be placed anywhere...but that made him almost an automatic take with one of the first few actions that round.
 
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Laura Gerard
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KWagle wrote:
rainbowrose wrote:

But placing a elf to get cookies and Zelf is a turn. And placing Zelf is a turn. Why wouldn't you count both of them as turns? The first happens on your turn. The second happens on your turn. That's why they are called turns. Which one aren't you counting?


I'm not counting the turn that uses a worker to get a worker. That's like trading $1 for $1. Afterwards, you will have $1.

And remember that you might not get to use Zelf at all.

There aren't always cookies. If there aren't any cookies, all you've done is delay the action you take with Zelf. Why didn't you just take that action with the elf you used to get Zelf.


So your point is that the turn that uses a worker to get a worker is a wasted turn. But my point is that it is still a turn, wasted or otherwise. And if it seems like a wasted turn to you then don't do it. I've played 3 times and Zelf was taken once. Nobody at the table thought that was a wasted turn. The cookies points alone were totally worth it.
 
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Kiran Wagle
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rainbowrose wrote:

So your point is that the turn that uses a worker to get a worker is a wasted turn. But my point is that it is still a turn, wasted or otherwise. And if it seems like a wasted turn to you then don't do it. I've played 3 times and Zelf was taken once. Nobody at the table thought that was a wasted turn. The cookies points alone were totally worth it.


Not wasted, just deferred. Like when your plane breaks down, the airline puts you in a hotel overnight, everyone else's plane departs on schedule, you fly out on a different plane the next day. Just a way of killing time.

The people who *don't* take Zelf certainly won't think it's a wasted turn, since they can take an action space you could've taken. It's more options for them. And I'd be surprised if this game ever really turns on the reindeer stall cookie points.
 
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Kiran Wagle
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KTFerguson wrote:

You will always get at least 1 cookie if you get Zelf, by virtue of the fact that you can't feed reindeer who have no cookies.


Ah, right, I was thinking of the card that removes the cookies, but then they get replenished to one per stall?
 
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William Ford
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rainbowrose wrote:
I've played 3 times and Zelf was taken once. Nobody at the table thought that was a wasted turn. The cookies points alone were totally worth it.


By the last turn, there are nine cookies on the space, right? In two of the three games the 9 points were not worth taking?
 
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Kiran Wagle
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Crito wrote:


By the last turn, there are nine cookies on the space, right? In two of the three games the 9 points were not worth taking?


That's a very interesting observation on the perceived value of Zelf.
 
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Laura Gerard
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KWagle wrote:
KTFerguson wrote:

You will always get at least 1 cookie if you get Zelf, by virtue of the fact that you can't feed reindeer who have no cookies.


Ah, right, I was thinking of the card that removes the cookies, but then they get replenished to one per stall?


Yes, the card in question is "Spoiled Oats". From the rule book:
Quote:
At the start of the day, remove all cookie tokens from each stall of the Reindeer Stables. (this happens before new cookie tokens are added for the day


Crito wrote:
rainbowrose wrote:
I've played 3 times and Zelf was taken once. Nobody at the table thought that was a wasted turn. The cookies points alone were totally worth it.


By the last turn, there are nine cookies on the space, right? In two of the three games the 9 points were not worth taking?


I don't recall. It may have been that we overlooked a good move.

------------------

So I got to play twice more, once with 4 players and once with 3 players. In the 4 player game, James took Zelf nearly every turn and he came in 2nd place. I won by only 1 point. In the 3 player game with all but one of the same players, Zelf was used a lot less and the point spread between me (the winner) and everyone else was huge.

Not all action spots were created equal; but based on this little experience, I don't think we can say getting Zelf is always a wasted turn. In fact, sometimes it is the best move.
 
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