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Win, Place & Show» Forums » Rules

Subject: Questions/Clarifications on the Different Bets rss

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dave terry
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ypsilanti
Michigan
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Hi WPS players,
I found a near-mint copy of the 1966 version of this game for 12 dollars last night.

Having zero experience with gambling, and with the rule book assuming that one already does, I'd like to run my understanding of the bets by you all, so any mistakes may be corrected. Also, I'll label any specific questions Q1, Q2, etc. for ease of answering.

Win, Place, and Show:
From my reading on these forums, it has been made clear how a simple win, place and show bet works:
⦁ To win money on a win bet, the horse must win the race.
⦁ To win money on a place bet, the horse can come in 1st or 2nd.
⦁ To win on a show bet, the horse can come in 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

Combination Bet:
A player may bet on one horse to win, place, and show.
⦁ If the horse wins, the player collects the win, place, and show payoffs.
⦁ If the horse comes in second, the player collects the place and show payoffs.
⦁ If the horse comes in third, the player collects the show payoff.

Q1 - Is it allowed to combo one horse for two out of the three? For example, bet on horse #1 to win and place, or to win and show, or to place and show?

Daily Double Bet:
A player may pick the winners of the first and second race (ONLY the first and second races, not second and third, third and fourth, etc.) and placing a single bet on the selected horses. Both horses must win for the bet to be paid off.

⦁ You can Daily Double the same horse for both races.

⦁ A player may purchase as many Daily Double combinations as he wishes, though in that case they may find it easier to "baseball" or "wheel" their horses (see below).

⦁ The minimum bet is $1,000 per combination with a maximum of $5,000 per combination, and all bets must be made in multiples of $1,000.

⦁ Write "Daily Double" on the back of your betting slip along with the numbers of the horses selected and the amount bet. The first number indicates the horse selected to win the first race and the second indicates the winner of the second race.

⦁ The payoffs for the Daily Double are made in accordance with the Daily Double Payoff Chart.

Q2 - I notice in the BGG files section that there is another Daily Double chart for download with different payouts. I have the 1966 3M version, so which chart should I use?

Q3 - I found an alternate program for the original game at http://www.oddmangames.com/uploads/MORE_WPS_RACES.pdf, and I've also found different cards for historical races, etc. But, how could you then use the same Daily Double chart as for the original program? Wouldn't the different horse odds affect the payouts of this chart? In other words, I notice that 'expansion' programs are available, but they don't offer new Daily Double charts for the different horses that have different stats. What is going on here?

Baseball Bet:
If the player would like to combine more than two horses to win the first and second race, he can "baseball" them. If any combination of these numbers wins, the player collects.

For example, if you prefer the numbers 3, 4, and 6; the combinations 3-4, 3-6, 4-3, 4-6, 6-3, and 6-4 would win.

In the case above, since the player has bet on six combinations, a minimum bet on these numbers would be $6,000 (6 combinations at $1,000 each). In the case of the minimum bet, if one of the combinations wins, the player would collect for a $1,000 bet.

Q4 - I believe this to mean that, in the case of a three-horse baseball, your bets would have to be in multiples of $6,000, up to a maximum of $30,000 (in keeping with the maximum of $5,000 per combination). Thus it would follow that:

For two horses, there are 2 possible combinations (2k to 10k, in multiples of 2k)
For three horses, there are 6 possible combinations (6k to 30k, in multiples of 6k)
For four horses, there are 12 possible combinations (12k to 60,000k in multiples of 12k)
For five horses, there are 20 possible combinations (20k to 100k in multiples of 20k)
For six horses, there are 30 possible combinations (30k to 150k in multiples of 30k)

I do understand that the larger baseball bets are not that feasible, but I just wanted to check if I am understanding this correctly. Am I?


Wheel Bet
If the player has a favorite to win in either the first or second race, but no favorite in the other race, they may "wheel" the horse.

For example, if you bet "Number 4 Wheel", you bet that number 4 will win the first race but have no favorite in the second. This means you are betting on combinations 4-1, 4-2, 4-3, 4-4, 4-5, and 4-6. Thus your wheel bet would be from 6k to 30k, in multiples of 6k.

You can wheel the horse for either the first or second race.

For example, if you bet "Wheel Number 4", you bet that number 4 will win the second race but have no favorite in the first. This means you are betting on combinations 1-4, 2-4, 3-4, 4-4, 5-4, and 6-4. Thus your wheel bet would be from 6k to 30k, in multiples of 6k.

Q5 - For the baseball and wheel bets, I just wanted to make sure I'm correct in assuming that you have to bet in multiples of the minimum bet.

Thanks!
Dave
 
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Bert Schoose
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I'll try to answer your questions based on my understanding of playing the Avalon Hill version of the game:

Q1 - Yes, you can combine one horse for two out of three and bet a different horse for the third one. Also, you can split all three bets to a different horse. You can also choose to not place a bet for one of the categories such as betting the 4 horse to Win and Place but not place a bet for any horse to Show.

Q2 - As long as you agree with the folks that you are playing with at the start of the game, you can choose to utilize either chart. That decision should be between you and the other players. :-)

Q3 - Yes, the different odds should change the Daily Double payout amounts. If somebody creates alternate races and you want to use those races as part of your game, you'll need to either:

A) Not utilize those alternate races as part of the first 2 races of your game (keep in mind that the Daily Double only applies to those first 2 races).

B) Create your own charts by approximating the payouts based on the same or similar odds of the horses in the original first two races OR

C) Exclude the daily double wager from your game when you play the alternate charts

Q4 - In the standard game with published rules (again AH version), baseball and wheel bets are not included as part of the game. In fact, the rules (section 10) specifically limit you to placing only one bet on the win, one on the place, etc. and they limit you to a maximum of $5,000. Of course, you and your other players in the game that you are playing can agree to house rules that don't follow the published rules and you can decide amongst yourselves what you want to allow for these 'special' bets.

Q5 - Same as above. Since they aren't part of the base rules, the players will need to agree that if they want to use those bets, how should they be utilized in your specific game.

Most importantly, have FUN since WPS can be a very enjoyable game!

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dave terry
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ypsilanti
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Hi Bert,

Thanks for the reply. The suggestions for Q3 were helpful. As for the questions on the exotic bets, the 3M version definitely does include these bets under the 'Daily Double' section on the last page of the rules (see the rules that are available under Files section). And since I haven't been able to find a pdf of the AH rules anywhere online, I'm not sure how the two versions compare - but the exotic bets do add some nice flavor and I wanted someone who may have some experience with these bets in the game and maybe even in real life to weigh in.

In the version of the game that I have (3M 1966), the rules specifically say that the $1000 minimum and $5000 maximum bets apply to each individual combination, not the total bet. So, in the case of a 3-horse baseball bet you are actually betting on six different combinations, so the minimum bet would be $6000. However, it doesn't then explain if higher bets for the same set of combinations must increment evenly across all combinations (I suspect that it does - this makes the most sense and until I hear otherwise, this is how I'll play it). Thus my conclusions that for a 3-horse baseball you'd have a minimum of $6,000, a maximum of $30,000, and that you'd have to increment evenly across all combinations that are part of the baseball - in other words, $6,000 increments. The rules don't explicitly explain this, nor do they explicitly explain baseballing any number other than three horses. I'm pretty sure I'm getting it right, but just wanted some corroboration.

Happy Holidays!
Dave
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Bert Schoose
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I now read the 3M version of the rules that you pointed me to. I checked them against the AH version and the Baseball and Wheel bet references are indeed excluded from the AH version. The other parts of the Daily Double rules are the same.

The short answer to Q4 and Q5 of your original questions is, "Yes", you are interpreting that correctly.

The longer answer...: Both sets of rules permit you to make as many Daily Double wagers as you want to - provided you have enough money to place those bets. Each bet has a minimum of $1k and a maximum of $5k. Both the Baseball and the Wheel bets are basically short cuts so that when you want to bet multiple combinations, you can do so without the need to list out each combination separately on your betting slip. Of course, each combination would have the same $ bet on it (minimum of $1k and maximum of $5k) when it's listed as a Wheel wager.

The example provided for the Wheel bet in the rules that has the minimum of $6k limit COULD have been listed separately on your betting sheet as 4-1, 4-2, 4-3, 4-4, 4-5 & 4-6. Each one of those separate bets have to be a minimum of $1k and a maximum of $5k. By listing it as a WHEEL bet, you don't need to list out each combination on your betting slip.

The Baseball bet rule as written is probably a poor choice and very unlikely to be used much since it limits you to pick the same numbered horse for two separate races. Just because you like the 4 and 6 horses in race 1 doesn't mean you'd like the 4 and 6 horses in race 2. That rule would give you 4-4, 4-6, 6-4 and 6-6 as your combinations if you made a 4-6 Baseball bet. It doesn't cover a combination if you'd like the 4 and 6 in the first race and the 1 and 4 in the second race.

My "guess" is that when AH playtested the game, they determined that players were confused about how to apply those rules correctly and so they just dropped those shortcuts from the rules since players can accomplish the exact same outcome by just listing the bets separately. Furthermore, some players might want to vary the amount bet on different Daily Double combinations such as: 4-1 for $1k, 4-2 for $3k, 4-3 for $2k, 4-4 for $5k, etc. and so they just limited confusion by allowing you to make as many DD bets as you have funds to cover.

I did think of an interesting situation that could occur if somebody wagered all of their remaining money on DD bets after they bought a horse for the first race. Since they couldn't get a payout for a winning bet until after the second race, that means that they would not have any money to buy a horse in the auction for the second race. The rules say they "must" buy a horse during the auction for each race. I suggest a rule that if a player places a wager on a DD, they must retain at least $500 of their $50k for the second race. Again, I can't imagine anyone actually betting all of their $ on DD wagers but it's a game so one never knows...
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TC Giberson
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Dave, in response to Q3, as was explained the original Daily Doubles chart will not work for other race programs that are not the original with the game.

However, I have created a Generic Daily Doubles Chart that will allow you to calculate the Daily Double payout for any two sets of races. The payouts are based off of the original payout amounts based on odds.

There is an explanation on the bottom of the chart. Basically you take the first number of the odds for the horses you are betting on and add them. For example: first race you choose a 3-1 odds horse, the second race you choose a 4-1 odds horse. That adds to 7, which means a $4500 payout per $1000 bet.

* * * * *
 
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