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Subject: Monster focus with non-attack multi-target abilities? rss

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Chris Kessel
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The Hound has a Muddle "target all adjacent enemies", but there's no actual attack on the card.

Will it move such that it muddles its focus and as many other enemies as possible like it would with an attack? Or does it move like it has no attack at all, thus just moves to get adjacent to its focus, but doesn't try to optimize to affect more than the focus?
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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The former....or at least, I have a hard time imagining the latter being the intended rule.
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Michael Denman
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I'll grant you that I'm new to Gloomhaven, but that's not how I understand it. Won't the Hound move so that it affects as many targets as possible, making sure that its focus is one of those targets?
 
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Matt Ziemer
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I believe as per the rules it would be option 2 but I always play those types of abilities as option A as it makes more sense to my group. Of course it will always move go the focus and just get more players if possible.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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Trump wrote:
I'll grant you that I'm new to Gloomhaven, but that's not how I understand it. Won't the Hound move so that it affects as many targets as possible, making sure that its focus is one of those targets?

If this response is towards me, then note that we agree. (Since the OP didn't seem to lean one way or the other, it seemed like a response to me....)
 
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Alex Florin
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Trump wrote:
I'll grant you that I'm new to Gloomhaven, but that's not how I understand it. Won't the Hound move so that it affects as many targets as possible, making sure that its focus is one of those targets?

If this response is towards me, then note that we agree. (Since the OP didn't seem to lean one way or the other, it seemed like a response to me....)


The rules for focus, movement and maximizing attacks are for "attack" abilities, with the monster acting as if it has a melee attack if it has none. For that card, it has no attack and will therefore move only towards a hex adjacent to its focus without regard to other enemies.
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Mathue Faulkner
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aflorin wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Trump wrote:
I'll grant you that I'm new to Gloomhaven, but that's not how I understand it. Won't the Hound move so that it affects as many targets as possible, making sure that its focus is one of those targets?

If this response is towards me, then note that we agree. (Since the OP didn't seem to lean one way or the other, it seemed like a response to me....)


The rules for focus, movement and maximizing attacks are for "attack" abilities, with the monster acting as if it has a melee attack if it has none. For that card, it has no attack and will therefore move only towards a hex adjacent to its focus without regard to other enemies.

This is one that I'll play wrong then.

I still have to wonder if that was the intended rule when the card was created. The Focus/Movement/Attack rules underwent A LOT of clarification shortly after release, and Isaac seemed to be making decisions based on overall simplicity in order to avoid ambiguities. This just seems like one of those cards that may have been unintentionally nerfed due to those clarifications. It seems like an unintentional technicality...

I may be wrong, but I know the FAQ regarding Focus/Movement wasn't exactly set in stone for a while there....

 
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Joseph Cochran
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aflorin wrote:
The rules for focus, movement and maximizing attacks are for "attack" abilities, with the monster acting as if it has a melee attack if it has none. For that card, it has no attack and will therefore move only towards a hex adjacent to its focus without regard to other enemies.


No, it'll still try to maximize its effect on as many enemies as possible. So if there are two open hexes adjacent to its focus within its movement and one affects only the focus while another affects the focus plus one more target, it'll go to the latter spot.
 
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Philipp Schuster
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From the rulebook:

P29:
Quote:
If a monster does not have an attack listed on its ability card for the round, it finds a focus as if it had a melee attack.


P30:
Quote:
If a monster has a move but no attack afterward as part of its ability card, it will use its movement to get as close as possible to its focused target (determined as if it had a melee attack), moving along the shortest possible path to enter a hex adjacent to its focused enemy.

and
Quote:
If a monster has an attack ability after its movement, it will move the least number of hexes possible in such a way as to attack its focused enemy with maximum effect. If it is a single-target melee attack, it will simply move toward the nearest hex adjacent to its focus to attack. If it is a multi-target attack, it will move toward a position where its attack will hit its focused enemy and as many other enemies as possible.


So it seems that positioning in order to maximize the number of targets only happens if there is an attack action on the ability card.

then
Quote:
Having abilities other than “Attack” on its ability card does not affect a monster’s movement in any way. It will simply move according to the above rules and then use its other abilities as best as it can.


So there even is an extra sentence clarifying that having no "attack" on the ability card does not change the rules above. Sorry to say that, but according to the RAW the monster just takes the shortest path to its focus and then triggers its ability. If the two hexes (hitting the focus only vs. hitting another character too) are equivalent (same distance from the monster's actual position) the players can always decide to move it for maximum effect. If not, it would be against the rules to move the monster to a better postion - a rule you can of course break if you want to.
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Per Erlandsson
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mfaulk80 wrote:
aflorin wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Trump wrote:
I'll grant you that I'm new to Gloomhaven, but that's not how I understand it. Won't the Hound move so that it affects as many targets as possible, making sure that its focus is one of those targets?

If this response is towards me, then note that we agree. (Since the OP didn't seem to lean one way or the other, it seemed like a response to me....)


The rules for focus, movement and maximizing attacks are for "attack" abilities, with the monster acting as if it has a melee attack if it has none. For that card, it has no attack and will therefore move only towards a hex adjacent to its focus without regard to other enemies.

This is one that I'll play wrong then.

I still have to wonder if that was the intended rule when the card was created. The Focus/Movement/Attack rules underwent A LOT of clarification shortly after release, and Isaac seemed to be making decisions based on overall simplicity in order to avoid ambiguities. This just seems like one of those cards that may have been unintentionally nerfed due to those clarifications. It seems like an unintentional technicality...

I may be wrong, but I know the FAQ regarding Focus/Movement wasn't exactly set in stone for a while there....


For most of the non-targeted attacks they are not really "intentional" like a cleave Attack would be. A Fire Demon that does it's stuff and then flares up, damaging the surrounding targets. This isn't the same as a Living Bones moving into the fray to maximize a 3 target cleave.

Fluff wise it just doesn't make sense for the monsters to maximize the impact of their non-attack abilities.
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