Mac Mcleod
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Folks are always talking about how liberal RSP is.

I thought I'd link someone who I've always thought of as liberal.



Quote:
Robert Reich looks the rise of Big Money in politics, the decline of our democracy, and Trump's election.


The problem from 0-5m
The way out from 5m-6m

Louis_Brandeis - We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.

And even Mr. Reich s probably more conservative than most european liberals.

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I love ya Mac, but go the fuck to sleep.
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I felt like that video was about 3 minutes too long. My attention span is short and there was a lot of down time watching paper get setup and lines get thickened.

But aside from that, he does not really offer any specifics on his plan to "get out" of the current situation. I could guess that one of his plans is higher taxes on the wealthy to provide health care, education, infrastructure, etc, but he does not explicitly say that.

The big problem IMO is the money in politics and he does not offer a solution to that problem at all that I could tell. But I could have missed it since I was required to read a lot of scribbling and the camera jumped around a lot.

TL;DR I agree in principle with a lot of what was presented, but I was disappointed that there wasn't more substance to it.
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Styro wrote:
I felt like that video was about 3 minutes too long. My attention span is short and there was a lot of down time watching paper get setup and lines get thickened.

But aside from that, he does not really offer any specifics on his plan to "get out" of the current situation. I could guess that one of his plans is higher taxes on the wealthy to provide health care, education, infrastructure, etc, but he does not explicitly say that.

The big problem IMO is the money in politics and he does not offer a solution to that problem at all that I could tell. But I could have missed it since I was required to read a lot of scribbling and the camera jumped around a lot.

TL;DR I agree in principle with a lot of what was presented, but I was disappointed that there wasn't more substance to it.


His plan was all of the same talking points that we hear from RSP liberals, who are just as liberal as he is, but who apparently think they are not for some reason. His plan won't work any better than the GOP's plan will work (he's right about the oligarchy and trickle down not working well). Because it only incorporates good ideas from one side of the political spectrum. For example, he doesn't have any room for acknowledging that Unions can be too strong and also just as corrupt as the capitalists that they contend with (strong unions good! regulation good!). And he implies that all of the gains from the last 50 years were due to government investments rather than market forces (market forces bad!).

As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. And I don't mean the Bush/Clinton middle, where both sides "compromise" by spending tax money on what both sides want. Hey, you get free hound-outs for your voters and we'll get free hound-outs for ours! Yay, compromise! It's the middle where unions can be good, if checks and balances are in place. Where regulation can be good, if it makes sense and isn't seen as a sacred cow. The middle where market forces can be good, if oligarchs aren't allowed to run rampant over the electorate.

Unfortunately at the end of the day, it the electorate that allows themselves to be manipulated into supporting the oligarchs and the power brokers. Until they wake up and realize that they are electing people with no integrity and who only care about gathering and consolidating power for themselves and their friends it will continue down the same path to hell that it's currently on.

I'm afraid we are now going to do a major over-correction to whatever the Left equivalent of Donald Trump is. Someone to capitalize on all of the anger and resentment just like Trump did. I guess time will tell.
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I think Bernie would have been much better than Mr. Trump and I wasn't a supporter of his.

However, republicans would have opposed him mercilessly.

I'm beginning to thing we had to have this period if we are going to get to someplace healthy. Republicans have been growing increasingly extreme and toxic ever since the late 1990s.

As I've said before tho, I think until the right to abortion falls, the republican wedding of evangelicals to oligarchs will continue.

I agree Reich lacks specifics. He identifies the problem but he has no new ideas that would actually fix the problem.

Dropping the estate tax is a terrible idea if oligarchs are an existential threat to our country. You could argue we faced them before with the Robber Baron period and we managed to survive. I think it's different tho for various reasons.


(yea- my sleep schedule goes thru a crazy period every 4-5 months. My natural cycle has been 26-27 hours ever since I retired.)
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maxo-texas wrote:
I think Bernie would have been much better than Mr. Trump and I wasn't a supporter of his.

However, republicans would have opposed him mercilessly.

I'm beginning to thing we had to have this period if we are going to get to someplace healthy. Republicans have been growing increasingly extreme and toxic ever since the late 1990s.

As I've said before tho, I think until the right to abortion falls, the republican wedding of evangelicals to oligarchs will continue.

I agree Reich lacks specifics. He identifies the problem but he has no new ideas that would actually fix the problem.

Dropping the estate tax is a terrible idea if oligarchs are an existential threat to our country. You could argue we faced them before with the Robber Baron period and we managed to survive. I think it's different tho for various reasons.


(yea- my sleep schedule goes thru a crazy period every 4-5 months. My natural cycle has been 26-27 hours ever since I retired.)


Literally anybody who ran would have been better than Trump. Including Gary Johnson. Including Cruz. including Hillary. Including Herman Cain.

Literally anyone.
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ejmowrer wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
I think Bernie would have been much better than Mr. Trump and I wasn't a supporter of his.

However, republicans would have opposed him mercilessly.

I'm beginning to thing we had to have this period if we are going to get to someplace healthy. Republicans have been growing increasingly extreme and toxic ever since the late 1990s.

As I've said before tho, I think until the right to abortion falls, the republican wedding of evangelicals to oligarchs will continue.

I agree Reich lacks specifics. He identifies the problem but he has no new ideas that would actually fix the problem.

Dropping the estate tax is a terrible idea if oligarchs are an existential threat to our country. You could argue we faced them before with the Robber Baron period and we managed to survive. I think it's different tho for various reasons.


(yea- my sleep schedule goes thru a crazy period every 4-5 months. My natural cycle has been 26-27 hours ever since I retired.)


Literally anybody who ran would have been better than Trump. Including Gary Johnson. Including Cruz. including Hillary. Including Herman Cain.

Literally anyone.


I still think Cruz might have been worse.

(That's probably naive, but he's really a bit terrifying in ways that Trump isn't.)
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I don't think he would have put us at risk of nuclear war so quickly.
And I don't think he would have spit down the throats of all our allies.

But his basic competency would have advanced the oligarchical, religious, rightwing, pro-corporate over individuals agenda much more effectively.
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Terwox wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
I think Bernie would have been much better than Mr. Trump and I wasn't a supporter of his.

However, republicans would have opposed him mercilessly.

I'm beginning to thing we had to have this period if we are going to get to someplace healthy. Republicans have been growing increasingly extreme and toxic ever since the late 1990s.

As I've said before tho, I think until the right to abortion falls, the republican wedding of evangelicals to oligarchs will continue.

I agree Reich lacks specifics. He identifies the problem but he has no new ideas that would actually fix the problem.

Dropping the estate tax is a terrible idea if oligarchs are an existential threat to our country. You could argue we faced them before with the Robber Baron period and we managed to survive. I think it's different tho for various reasons.


(yea- my sleep schedule goes thru a crazy period every 4-5 months. My natural cycle has been 26-27 hours ever since I retired.)


Literally anybody who ran would have been better than Trump. Including Gary Johnson. Including Cruz. including Hillary. Including Herman Cain.

Literally anyone.


I still think Cruz might have been worse.

(That's probably naive, but he's really a bit terrifying in ways that Trump isn't.)


I'm definitely not saying these people would have been good or even not horrible. I just can't imagine them being worse for the country than Trump has been. I hate Cruz. I really do. And I think he would have been bad for the country. But I think he would have been better than Trump.
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maxo-texas wrote:
As I've said before tho, I think until the right to abortion falls, the republican wedding of evangelicals to oligarchs will continue.

Not going to happen. Here's why.

Contrary to anti-abortion talking points, Roe v. Wade was not about establishing a privacy right not explicitly in the Constitution (well, except for requiring warrants for searches).

What it was about was liberty, which runs through the whole Constitution, pretty much. You can't force a woman to carry an embryo. You can't take 9 months of a person's life without an overwhelming reason, much less 18 years. Freedom. Until viability, at around 24 weeks, there's no viable human to protect.

This standard has been upheld many, many times by the Supreme Court, including by justices who pledged to overturn Roe v. Wade; both explicitly in decisions upholding Roe v. Wade, and in refusal to hear cases decided in federal courts according to the viability standard (24 weeks).

What about abortions in the last trimester? They essentially do not happen. When a woman wants an abortion, she wants it fast. With very few exceptions, abortions after the first trimester are to save the life of the mother or abort a fetus that's dead, even though the mother's blood is flowing through it.

The majority of abortions in 2014 took place early in gestation: 91.5% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.2%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation. --https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.h...
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Tall_Walt wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
As I've said before tho, I think until the right to abortion falls, the republican wedding of evangelicals to oligarchs will continue.

Not going to happen. Here's why.

Contrary to anti-abortion talking points, Roe v. Wade was not about establishing a privacy right not explicitly in the Constitution (well, except for requiring warrants for searches).

What it was about was liberty, which runs through the whole Constitution, pretty much. You can't force a woman to carry an embryo. You can't take 9 months of a person's life without an overwhelming reason, much less 18 years. Freedom. Until viability, at around 24 weeks, there's no viable human to protect.

This standard has been upheld many, many times by the Supreme Court, including by justices who pledged to overturn Roe v. Wade; both explicitly in decisions upholding Roe v. Wade, and in refusal to hear cases decided in federal courts according to the viability standard (24 weeks).

What about abortions in the last trimester? They essentially do not happen. When a woman wants an abortion, she wants it fast. With very few exceptions, abortions after the first trimester are to save the life of the mother or abort a fetus that's dead, even though the mother's blood is flowing through it.

The majority of abortions in 2014 took place early in gestation: 91.5% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.2%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation. --https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.h...


Walt, that's all entirely reasonable. And it doesn't matter a bit to many of the judges they are installing.

As a rational counterpoint- at least 4 of the justices have ruled opposite of the way you are reasoning repeatedly over the last decade. It only takes one more such judge and abortion bans will be found constitutional and they will remain constitutional for 15 to 25 years minimum once that happens.

Just yesterday, I'm hearing on the news that some Trump appointees are keeping women locked up to force them to have their babies.

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maxo-texas wrote:
Just yesterday, I'm hearing on the news that some Trump appointees are keeping women locked up to force them to have their babies.

Who, ironically, will then be US citizens with no one but the US government responsible for them.
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maxo-texas wrote:
I don't think he would have put us at risk of nuclear war so quickly.
And I don't think he would have spit down the throats of all our allies.

But his basic competency would have advanced the oligarchical, religious, rightwing, pro-corporate over individuals agenda much more effectively.


I'm a long way from being an expert on US politics/politicians, but isn't one of the problems with dumping Trump that you get Pence as president, someone who may do a better job than Rubio (who from what I've read is 'most hated' by other Republicans) in advancing the agenda?

Caveat: I get a lot of my info about US politics from US sources such as the NYRB and the New Yorker.
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David N wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
I don't think he would have put us at risk of nuclear war so quickly.
And I don't think he would have spit down the throats of all our allies.

But his basic competency would have advanced the oligarchical, religious, rightwing, pro-corporate over individuals agenda much more effectively.


I'm a long way from being an expert on US politics/politicians, but isn't one of the problems with dumping Trump that you get Pence as president, someone who may do a better job than Rubio (who from what I've read is 'most hated' by other Republicans) in advancing the agenda?

Caveat: I get a lot of my info about US politics from US sources such as the NYRB and the New Yorker.


That is a problem, agreed. I think the general perception is Pence is less likely to get millions of people killed by starting a war because somebody called him a dotard. He's a shitty, standard-issue woman-hating conservative Republican.
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ejmowrer wrote:
For example, he doesn't have any room for acknowledging that Unions can be too strong and also just as corrupt as the capitalists that they contend with (strong unions good! regulation good!).


sure, unions that are too strong can potentially hinder growth, but worrying about that in the current American context is just fucking dumb because union strength is so incredibly low right now that increasing union power tenfold still wouldn't even balance the scales even a little

this is why reflexive centrism is bad: you're worrying about the possibilities of a stagnant, authoritarian left nation when that is literally decades away from happening if we started changing things drastically right now
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wifwendell wrote:
David N wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
I don't think he would have put us at risk of nuclear war so quickly.
And I don't think he would have spit down the throats of all our allies.

But his basic competency would have advanced the oligarchical, religious, rightwing, pro-corporate over individuals agenda much more effectively.


I'm a long way from being an expert on US politics/politicians, but isn't one of the problems with dumping Trump that you get Pence as president, someone who may do a better job than Rubio (who from what I've read is 'most hated' by other Republicans) in advancing the agenda?

Caveat: I get a lot of my info about US politics from US sources such as the NYRB and the New Yorker.


That is a problem, agreed. I think the general perception is Pence is less likely to get millions of people killed by starting a war because somebody called him a dotard. He's a shitty, standard-issue woman-hating conservative Republican.


Standard issue? Trump is common, that's what you're saying? That the general (R) is just a little Trump who is merely lacking the opportunity to do more?
 
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There are many insensative quotes from republicans regarding minorities and blacks. And then there is the recent tax bill.

Mr Trump may sign it but it is the creation of republicans in office. It is hypocritical, cruel, corrupt and favors 2% of the population over the good of the country and over half of its citizens.

How would you judge the republicans who wrote it and voted for It?
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mightygodking wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
For example, he doesn't have any room for acknowledging that Unions can be too strong and also just as corrupt as the capitalists that they contend with (strong unions good! regulation good!).


sure, unions that are too strong can potentially hinder growth, but worrying about that in the current American context is just fucking dumb because union strength is so incredibly low right now that increasing union power tenfold still wouldn't even balance the scales even a little

this is why reflexive centrism is bad: you're worrying about the possibilities of a stagnant, authoritarian left nation when that is literally decades away from happening if we started changing things drastically right now


There are some examples of union's doing stupid shit but what is more troubling is the union's like the auto workers union that sides with management more than fights for the people it's supposed to be fighting for. In other words, they've become corrupted and can't effectively do their job. I believe more companies should be worker owned instead of owned by shareholders, it would solve a lot of these problems that unions are trying to solve.
 
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GameCrossing wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
David N wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
I don't think he would have put us at risk of nuclear war so quickly.
And I don't think he would have spit down the throats of all our allies.

But his basic competency would have advanced the oligarchical, religious, rightwing, pro-corporate over individuals agenda much more effectively.


I'm a long way from being an expert on US politics/politicians, but isn't one of the problems with dumping Trump that you get Pence as president, someone who may do a better job than Rubio (who from what I've read is 'most hated' by other Republicans) in advancing the agenda?

Caveat: I get a lot of my info about US politics from US sources such as the NYRB and the New Yorker.


That is a problem, agreed. I think the general perception is Pence is less likely to get millions of people killed by starting a war because somebody called him a dotard. He's a shitty, standard-issue woman-hating conservative Republican.


Standard issue? Trump is common, that's what you're saying? That the general (R) is just a little Trump who is merely lacking the opportunity to do more?

That "Trumpism" is more or less bog-standard Republicanism with an extra helping of spite is a pretty common observation. And pretty well borne out on the ground, I think.

Other than, say egregiously racist shit like the travel ban, where are Trump's fingerprints on policy? Certainly not on the tax plan. Or the nuts and bolts of the ACA foolishness, or the impending attempt to gut Social Security and Medicare.

All that stuff seems like pretty standard GOP playbook. Trump is Republicanism and Republicanism is Trump.
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mightygodking wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
For example, he doesn't have any room for acknowledging that Unions can be too strong and also just as corrupt as the capitalists that they contend with (strong unions good! regulation good!).


sure, unions that are too strong can potentially hinder growth, but worrying about that in the current American context is just fucking dumb because union strength is so incredibly low right now that increasing union power tenfold still wouldn't even balance the scales even a little

this is why reflexive centrism is bad: you're worrying about the possibilities of a stagnant, authoritarian left nation when that is literally decades away from happening if we started changing things drastically right now


Maybe you could disagree with me without calling me "fucking dumb". It's what non-toxic people do.
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As many posters have said, Reich doesn't offer 'anything new', and doesn't have a 'solution' -- but then, he does.

It comes as the end. We need a "new patriotism" based on "what we owe each other as members of the same society". "It's our choice but we have to work for it."
 
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New Patriotism is such a fuzzy, obvious thing that it's barely any better than 'cut unnecessary government spending' or 'help those that deserve it': We can agree with it while having a very different idea of what we mean.

One doesn't have to be a genius either to realize that something that always was quite unique to America was a big American myth, almost religious, which had little to do with the territory itself, but with ideals. Those myths are important in all kinds of organizations, as they are ways to limit disagreement, and make some selfish, yet counterproductive behaviors taboo: Many a CEO will not obsess over operational numbers, but about culture.

One doesn't have to be much a visionary to realize that the American myth is broken, and needs reinventing. But the reason it needs reinventing is precisely because people disagree about it, and some people are just going to hate the reinvention, because their idea of America are going to be seen as unamerican. It'll be a matter of whether those losers lose quietly, realize how their ideas suck, or turn this into a time of violence.
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ejmowrer wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
For example, he doesn't have any room for acknowledging that Unions can be too strong and also just as corrupt as the capitalists that they contend with (strong unions good! regulation good!).


sure, unions that are too strong can potentially hinder growth, but worrying about that in the current American context is just fucking dumb because union strength is so incredibly low right now that increasing union power tenfold still wouldn't even balance the scales even a little

this is why reflexive centrism is bad: you're worrying about the possibilities of a stagnant, authoritarian left nation when that is literally decades away from happening if we started changing things drastically right now


Maybe you could disagree with me without calling me "fucking dumb". It's what non-toxic people do.


I don't read that as an attack on you, "ejmower" but a comment on the idea of worrying about union power when unions are as weak as kittens right now.

Even so, it would be more civil without those words.

Perhaps:

"but worrying about that in the current American context is silly/ludicrous/absurd because union strength is so incredibly low right now that increasing union power tenfold still wouldn't even balance the scales even a little"
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hibikir wrote:
New Patriotism is such a fuzzy, obvious thing that it's barely any better than 'cut unnecessary government spending' or 'help those that deserve it': We can agree with it while having a very different idea of what we mean.

One doesn't have to be a genius either to realize that something that always was quite unique to America was a big American myth, almost religious, which had little to do with the territory itself, but with ideals. Those myths are important in all kinds of organizations, as they are ways to limit disagreement, and make some selfish, yet counterproductive behaviors taboo: Many a CEO will not obsess over operational numbers, but about culture.

One doesn't have to be much a visionary to realize that the American myth is broken, and needs reinventing. But the reason it needs reinventing is precisely because people disagree about it, and some people are just going to hate the reinvention, because their idea of America are going to be seen as unamerican. It'll be a matter of whether those losers lose quietly, realize how their ideas suck, or turn this into a time of violence.


The "myths" and non-written parts of u.s. culture about being "a shining beacon on the hill" were something you could appeal to emotionally.

Now the hill is covered with toxic sludge and you can't even appeal to that. Millions of young americans died for freedom and democracy. We owe them to try and keep that alive in a really ugly world.

I think when the U.S. ends it's time as a superpower, that we'll have a period of larger wars again. Young people have forgotten the horrors of war. Military leaders have grown over-confident and forgotten the horrors of war. It will be much worse next time.
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