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Subject: Clarification on Summons with regards to items. rss

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Eric Robinson
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I have a question for summons with a minor spoiler with regards to items, and couldn't find anything regarding this in the FAQ or elsewhere:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

If you consume a small item to create a summon (for instance the ring that lets you summon a skeleton, sorry can't remember the name), and then refresh the small item through some other means, upon re-using the small item before your summon dies will you:

1. Create a new identical summon, thus effectively having two on the board?
2. Replace the existing summon with a new version (i.e. there can be only one version at a time)?
3. The original summon disappears when the small item is refreshed in the first place, so there wouldn't be an issue and the item would behave as normal?
4. Something else entirely?


I know that if an ability card in your active area that was used for a summon is taken back into your hand then the summon disappears, but was unsure of what happens with the above scenario and couldn't find anything on it anywhere else.
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Daniel King
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I'm not super far into the game, but are there affects that allow you to reuse a small item? I haven't encountered any yet.
 
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Jason Kratz
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I would play that the act of refreshing the item is analogous to picking up a summon ability card to put it back in your hand. In that case, the summons gets removed from the board.
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Eric Robinson
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Stryker1979 wrote:
I would play that the act of refreshing the item is analogous to picking up a summon ability card to put it back in your hand. In that case, the summons gets removed from the board.


I am thinking this is likely the answer as well but currently have my fingers crossed that you can have multiple copies so I can proceed with my plans of unleashing an undead horde upon the board as much as possible.
 
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Alex Florin
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The card has to be considered consumed/spent in order for it to be refreshed. Spent item can be refreshed through long rests. Consumed cards need special abilities. I'm guessing that card is the consumed type.

I assume that card is in your active area while the summon is alive. In which case you need to technically remove it from your active area to consume it, at which point the summon goes away, then you can immediately refresh it. Again though, if it is a consumed item, you can't refresh it with a long rest, you need a special ability card.
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Daniel King
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aflorin wrote:
The card has to be considered consumed/spent in order for it to be refreshed. Spent item can be refreshed through long rests. Consumed cards need special abilities. I'm guessing that card is the consumed type.

I assume that card is in your active area while the summon is alive. In which case you need to technically remove it from your active area to consume it, at which point the summon goes away, then you can immediately refresh it. Again though, if it is a consumed item, you can't refresh it with a long rest, you need a special ability card.


This is what I'm getting at. I have wondered if there is an ability that allows you to get consumable items back in the game, but I haven't found it yet. I'm wondering if OP simply has the rule incorrect, or if such an ability exists in the game.
 
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Eric Robinson
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aflorin wrote:
The card has to be considered consumed/spent in order for it to be refreshed. Spent item can be refreshed through long rests. Consumed cards need special abilities. I'm guessing that card is the consumed type.

I assume that card is in your active area while the summon is alive. In which case you need to technically remove it from your active area to consume it, at which point the summon goes away, then you can immediately refresh it. Again though, if it is a consumed item, you can't refresh it with a long rest, you need a special ability card.


The item in question is
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Item 123 Ring of Skulls which when consumed summons a skeleton.


So what you're saying is that the item goes to your active area when the summon is in play? I must have missed that in the rules although it very much makes sense.

The class I am playing (Spoilers for an unlockable class)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Quartermaster lets me refresh small items through a lot of his ability cards hence the question.


EDIT: Daniel to answer your question so you don't have to look at these spoilers yes there are abilities that let you refresh consumed items.

Double EDIT: Also Alex referring to the rulebook on Page 8 it says that an item with the loss symbol is immediately consumed after use. My confusion on this matter comes from the concept of whether an item that summons a monster is considered consumed directly after summoning or once the summon has died. I also don't recall seeing anything in the rulebook about items entering the active area, I had just assumed that was only designated for ability cards.
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Alex Florin
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Robinson218 wrote:
aflorin wrote:
The card has to be considered consumed/spent in order for it to be refreshed. Spent item can be refreshed through long rests. Consumed cards need special abilities. I'm guessing that card is the consumed type.

I assume that card is in your active area while the summon is alive. In which case you need to technically remove it from your active area to consume it, at which point the summon goes away, then you can immediately refresh it. Again though, if it is a consumed item, you can't refresh it with a long rest, you need a special ability card.


The item in question is
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Item 123 Ring of Skulls which when consumed summons a skeleton.


So what you're saying is that the item goes to your active area when the summon is in play? I must have missed that in the rules although it very much makes sense.

The class I am playing (Spoilers for an unlockable class)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Quartermaster lets me refresh small items through a lot of his ability cards hence the question.


EDIT: Daniel to answer your question so you don't have to look at these spoilers yes there are abilities that let you refresh consumed items.


It will go in the active area if it has a Persistent Bonus or Round Bonus Icon on the card. I assume it does.

Edit: Nix that, item card's don't have those symbols. They are just tapped until consumed if they have multiple charges. For items that stay out with multiple charges, the rules specifically say the are consumed/spent only after all charges have been used up. I don't recall a ruling that says you can do so before then.
 
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Eric Robinson
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Quote:

It will go in the active area if it has a Persistent Bonus or Round Bonus Icon on the card. I assume it does.


I'll have to recheck the card when I get home, I didn't remember it having an icon other than the loss icon.

Included my second edit from the other post in case you missed it:

"Also Alex referring to the rulebook on Page 8 it says that an item with the loss symbol is immediately consumed after use. My confusion on this matter comes from the concept of whether an item that summons a monster is considered consumed directly after summoning or once the summon has died. I also don't recall seeing anything in the rulebook about items entering the active area, I had just assumed that was only designated for ability cards."
 
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Daniel King
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Thanks for the clarification Eric. I can confirm that it only has the consume icon on it. I unlocked this item a couple of sessions ago. I am really stumped about the answer to this question. My intuition is that you would be able to create a second summon. In my mind the item is consumed as you use the ring, but the summon is a separate entity from the ring itself.
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Eric Robinson
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wkufan89 wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Eric. I can confirm that it only has the consume icon on it. I unlocked this item a couple of sessions ago. I am really stumped about the answer to this question. My intuition is that you would be able to create a second summon. In my mind the item is consumed as you use the ring, but the summon is a separate entity from the ring itself.


Anytime! And thanks for looking it up for me, today is a super slow day at work so I figured I would get the question out of the way haha. The card itself is pretty vague compared to the usual ability cards for summons hence where my initial confusion on the matter stemmed from.
 
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Alex Florin
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Robinson218 wrote:
Quote:

It will go in the active area if it has a Persistent Bonus or Round Bonus Icon on the card. I assume it does.


I'll have to recheck the card when I get home, I didn't remember it having an icon other than the loss icon.

Included my second edit from the other post in case you missed it:

"Also Alex referring to the rulebook on Page 8 it says that an item with the loss symbol is immediately consumed after use. My confusion on this matter comes from the concept of whether an item that summons a monster is considered consumed directly after summoning or once the summon has died. I also don't recall seeing anything in the rulebook about items entering the active area, I had just assumed that was only designated for ability cards."


Ok, if it has a lost symbol, then it is consumed immediately, though the summon stays out of course. That means that if you recover that item you should be able to use it again

Edit: And by again, I mean do another summon, the original one would stay out.
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Arthur Janicek
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Ok. So I'll ask this here in this thread again. Seems appropriate. If the summoner exhausts and has active summons (resulting from item use) in the play area, are they also removed? After all, they are not in the players active area if they are in play as the result of using an item and if you're allowed two or more summons from one item active simultaneously, would they go away after you exhaust or would they persist? To me, they don't seem as tied to the summoner as normal "active area" or "action card" summons are.
 
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Jay Johnson
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one could possibly derive a different interpretation based on the Summon section of the rulebook
Rulebook pg 26 wrote:
A summon is considered a persistent bonus (the card
is placed in the active area
) until either the summon loses all its hit
points, its corresponding ability card is removed from the active
area, or the summoner becomes exhausted, at which point the
summon is removed from the board.

That could possibly be interpretted that all player summons automatically become "persistent bonus", and once the item is used to summon, it becomes the summoned creature's "ability card" (since it does list the abilities of that summoned creature), which is placed in the Active area.

Thus it would be unable to be recovered until the summoned creature was killed or dismissed, and also that the summoned creature is gone when the summoner exhausts.

To me, this provides a clearer, more consistent (and thus simpler and easier to remember) ruling for all player summons.
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Arthur Janicek
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I get all that wrt action card summons. Item cards are never placed in the active area tho. It's a different case altogether. They don't have a persistent symbol on them. They're flipped in the item area when used. The use of these item card is not really clear in the RAW. A lot of their use is left up the the creative interpretations of players. Any direction in their use is and would be appreciated. Are we creating an "active area" for items now too?
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Matt Ziemer
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Daemon6 wrote:
I get all that wrt action card summons. Item cards are never placed in the active area tho. It's a different case altogether. They don't have a persistent symbol on them. They're flipped in the item area when used. The use of these item card is not really clear in the RAW. A lot of their use is left up the the creative interpretations of players. Any direction in their use is and would be appreciated. Are we creating an "active area" for items now too?


All item summons do have the smaller summon number disc placed on them though to mark which summon came from where and whom. I always left the item in my inventory during this time, didn't move it to my active area, but considered it active and didn't consume it until the summon was destroyed and I removed the small marker.

Alex usually has Isaac's ear though so if that info about a second summon came from Isaac, sounds good to me.

As far as summons being removed when players exhaust, the above quote seems pretty clear that all summons are removed so, shirt of a specific rule for item summons countering that, I'd go with they're removed.
 
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Jay Johnson
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meziemer wrote:
As far as summons being removed when players exhaust, the above quote seems pretty clear that all summons are removed so, shirt of a specific rule for item summons countering that, I'd go with they're removed.

It also says that the card is placed in the active area, but people seem to think that the rulebook doesn't apply to this situation.
"Items NEVER go to the active area" but I don't see anything in the rules that prohibit it, while there is that line that Summons go to the Active Area.
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Alex Florin
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I've pinged Isaac to see what he says. IMO though, that rule reference is about active cards, not item card, but he could definitely rule it the other way.
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Alex Florin
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Heard back from Isaac.

The summon disappears if you refresh the item, similar to an active card that you lose/discard to recover it. So only one summon at a time for the item.
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Arthur Janicek
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aflorin wrote:
Heard back from Isaac.

The summon disappears if you refresh the item, similar to an active card that you lose/discard to recover it. So only one summon at a time for the item.
 
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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I am pretty sure Isaac wrote somewhere that an item which summons will go to the active area until the summon dies - then the item is consumed and flipped down. Thus it makes sense, when you refresh it, that the summon disappears (as you have to unsummon it first to flip it facedown).
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Keith Li
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I ran into a similar question. I am glad that it is addressed that multiple concurrent instances of summon is not allowed.

Otherwise, at just level 2, I would being able to summon copies continuously like this:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Items: Cloak of Pockets, Minor Stamina Potion, Power Core.
Cards: Scroll of Recall, Reforge.
Round 1: Power Core, Scroll of Recall (refresh Power Core), Power Core, Minor Stamina Potion (recover Scroll of Recall)
Round 2: Scroll of Recall (refresh Power Core), Power Core
Round 3: Reforge (recover Scroll of Recall)
Round 4: Scroll of Recall (refresh Minor Stamina Potion), Minor Stamina Potion (recover Scroll of Recall and Reforge)
Repeat round 2-4, 13+ times?

That would be 2 + 1 summon every 3 round, which is completely broken.
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Even disallowing multiple concurrent instances, I can still keep 1 Steel Construct and 1 Skeleton up and re-summon them whenever they die. That is still pretty over-powered.
 
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Alexander D
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Hey Keith, please put those items and cards in spoiler tags, I'm pretty sure I haven't seen them before. Thanks!
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Keith Li
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Kryptonite V wrote:
Hey Keith, please put those items and cards in spoiler tags, I'm pretty sure I haven't seen them before. Thanks!


OK, but IMHO, I don't think seeing the name of cards would actually spoil anything...
 
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Des T.
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lsy03 wrote:

OK, but IMHO, I don't think seeing the name of cards would actually spoil anything...


Your post describes the abilities, or rather, allows deduction on what the items and abilities do.

As for name spoilers, I think that's by request of Isaac.
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