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Subject: Fearsome Presence with Prepare the Ambush rss

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Jack Liu
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The way I read it, the "your" in fearsome presence refers to imperial player.

So instead of activating a group, you can exhaust PTA. That counts as your activation for the turn, after which you can use fearsome presence.

Does that sound right?
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Pasi Ojala
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I would say you are in effect skipping your activation with Prepare the Ambush.

"instead of activating a group." means you do not actually activate a group. The game only has group activations and figure activations, so "your activation" most probably refers to group activation, which didn't actually happen.

Note that even when you don't have any groups to activate, you get your "turn to activate" - you are just unable to activate a group if you don't have a ready group at that moment. I don't think the intent is that you could activate Fearsome Presence in that case.

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Owen Sieber
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I do not believe PTA is an activation as much as a skip activation.
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G Voss
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RRG, Activation wrote:
If all friendly groups are exhausted, that player cannot perform any more activations this round. The player’s opponent(s) continue to resolve activations until all groups are exhausted.

Imho, the wording in this paragraph support Pasi's interpretation.
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Jack Liu
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RRG Activation phase: During campaign mission, Rebel and Imperial players alternate activating groups of figures

"your activation" still sounds like a side to me, rebel or imperial. If they meant it to be a figure or deployment card, they could have said after activating a figure.
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Jack Liu
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Lathuvan wrote:
RRG, Activation wrote:
If all friendly groups are exhausted, that player cannot perform any more activations this round. The player’s opponent(s) continue to resolve activations until all groups are exhausted.

Imho, the wording in this paragraph support Pasi's interpretation.


Ok this is a good point. I can see that then
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yay, Pasi, we get to have a debate, as I am in total disagreement for now.

To me, "your activation" does not refer to a figure or even a group activation. If it were synonymous, then Pasi's interpretation would apply, but I take it to be something else.

We usually alternate between Rebel and Imperial activations. This is supported by the following rule:

RRG - Activation wrote:
• Players alternate resolving activations. After a player finishes
resolving an activation, one of his opponents then resolves an
activation.


So we do have a precedence that the players have activations that alternate, and during each player activation, you activate a group.

Prepare the Ambush is simply changing what you do during your player activation, it does not cancel your activation. Thus, Fearsome Presence can be activated during an activation where you exhausted Prepare the Ambush.

For the same reason, I would argue that you cannot exhaust Prepare the Ambush after a group has only partially activated (e.g., one out of three Stormtroopers). You can only do it at the end of the player's activation, which requires the whole group to activate.

I look forward to evidence for the contrary to be presented, if it exists, but I think this case is fairly strong for now.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Lathuvan wrote:
RRG, Activation wrote:
If all friendly groups are exhausted, that player cannot perform any more activations this round. The player’s opponent(s) continue to resolve activations until all groups are exhausted.

Imho, the wording in this paragraph support Pasi's interpretation.


It supports Pasi's interpretation that you cannot exhaust Fearsome Presence if all your groups are exhausted (except the one that just activated). I totally agree with that part of Pasi's post. It does not support the argument for Prepare the Ambush, though.
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Jack Liu
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Posting at similar time to clipper but I’m going back on what i thought..

Many of you are saying “skipped” activation. PTA does not use the word skip, it uses the word instead.

Ex. Instead of doing A (activate a group), you are doing B (exhaust PTA). You did not “skip” doing something during the activation phase, you just did something different than the default in RRG

Also card abilities override RRG, so with PTA, you now have something else you can do during “your activation” (Imperial side)

So I’m going back to my original position that this is a legal combination
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Pasi Ojala
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When you read the Activation and Group sections, you see that RRG by default talks about resolving activations as-if you always have a ready group to activate. It then adds the exceptions for the cases when you don't have a group to activate.

RRG also uses the term "opportunity to resolve an activation", implying that you don't actually resolve an activation always when you have the opportunity (your player turn).
Activation wrote:
-- When it is their opportunity to resolve an activation, the
Rebel players choose which Rebel figure will activate.


The generic:
Activation Phase wrote:
The first phase of each round is the Activation Phase. During this
phase, players alternate activating groups of figures.

Ready wrote:
A ready figure is any figure that is eligible to be activated.

The restriction:
Exhaust wrote:
· Figures that correspond to exhausted Deployment cards or
activation tokens cannot be activated.


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Jack Liu
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The word “Your” is also singular and possessive. So it referring to the Imperial Player who controls their figures makes sense

It doesn’t make sense to use that word if the intent was to refer to a group of figure(s). There is plenty of space left on the card to have used a word to better fit a deployment group if that was the intent
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Pasi, we are already quite aware as well that the term activation has multiple meanings already. We have discussed in the past the fact that the card text really doesn't distinguish between a figure's activation and the group's activation. We came up with ways to determine which is meant in each case.

There is a lot of support in the rulebook to assume that the third definition of a player's activation is also something which occurs. This actually solves many of our other problems that we have had with the term 'activation' in the past too.

This is why I argue that you have a player activation, in which you usually activate a group, which you do by activating each figure of the group. Different cards refer to these all as activations and it is usually incredibly obvious which is meant.

As already pointed out, if the player has no ready groups, they actually get no player activations, so that isn't a problem in either situation. The question really is just whether these 'player activations' exists and I believe we already have multiple quotes showing that they do.
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Pasi Ojala
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Clipper wrote:
The question really is just whether these 'player activations' exists and I believe we already have multiple quotes showing that they do.

Which quotes do you think are most applicable to show it? Are there any abilities that refer to alternating turns (opportunities to activate) as player activations?


1a. During each Activation Phase, each figure receives one activation. During a figure's activation, it performs up to two actions.
1b. The first phase of each round is the Activation Phase. During this phase, players alternate activating groups of figures.
2. Players alternate resolving activations. After a player finishes resolving an activation, one of his opponents then resolves an activation.
3. After resolving an activation, exhaust the figure's activation token (for heroes) or Deployment card (for all other figures). Here resolving an activation is not referring to player turn, so 2 should not either.
4. If all friendly groups are exhausted, that player cannot perform any more activations this round. i.e. "Figures that correspond to exhausted Deployment cards or activation tokens cannot be activated."

The IA team has tried to refer to group activations as "group activations", and fix some previous slips through errata. It is an obvious issue having the same word refer to two things, so having a third concept for the same word appear when the designers didn't even know about it would be strange. There are better terms if the intent was to refer to your player turn instead of group activation.

Anyway, that's my opinion, and I don't think it breaks anything if you make the opposite interpretation known to the rebels before you use it.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I will have to concede a point on the verbiage there. It does say to perform or resolve activations rather than providing ownership to the player. It was not as clear as when I first read over the section.

However, can you provide an example where 'your' refers to a group? As far as I'm aware, it can only apply to a player or a figure within a group.

It has to be able to apply to the group to be able to make this work that you are getting no activation. If it cannot apply to a group (due to 'your'), and it cannot apply to a player (due to your argument), then the only option is that it would be referring to a figure's activation, and that would allow you to exhaust Fearsome Presence in the middle of a group's activation, which I doubt either of us thinks is the intention.

The argument here is really what is meant by 'your activation'. I think that in this context, it can only apply to the player and the player still retains that if they do something other than resolve a group activation.
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Pasi Ojala
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Clipper wrote:
The argument here is really what is meant by 'your activation'. I think that in this context, it can only apply to the player and the player still retains that if they do something other than resolve a group activation.

Yes. Your refers to the imperial player whose ability it is, but because the rules do not define "your activation" (and doesn't seem to equate it with your opportunity to activate a group, i.e player turn), it needs to mean something else.

I would hazard an educated guess of the intent that it should be worded "after you resolve an activation" or shortly "after activating a group" (similar to the wording in Strategic Planning and Supervisory Agent). (Yes, that's a circular argument. So, ask for ruling if you don't agree.)
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G Voss
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Hoboy, Clipper and Pasi debating. A battle of giants, but a civil one. *grabs popcorn*
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Pasi Ojala
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Joe fife
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frotes wrote:
The word “Your” is also singular and possessive.

From the OED:
Quote:
Belonging to or associated with the person or people that the speaker is addressing
Your is both singular and plural.
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Jack Liu
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Quote:
1st question: Can I use "Fearsome Presence" after I exhaust "Prepare the Ambush" as my activation for the turn? The way I read it, the "your" in fearsome presence refers to imperial player. So instead of activating a group, you can exhaust PTA. That counts as your activation for the turn, after which you can use fearsome presence. Does that sound right? current discussion threat on it https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1906176/fearsome-presence-p...


Quote:
Hi Jack,

You cannot use Fearsome Presence after using Prepare the Ambush. Fearsome Presence should be considered to read “Exhaust this card at the end of one of your group’s activations” and Prepare the Ambush replaces that group activation, making it impossible to trigger Fearsome Presence.

Todd Michlitsch
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
tmichlitsch@fantasyflightgames.com


That clears it up since it is being interpreted with a group's activation in mind

Note: removed response to another question I asked
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