Gerry Smit
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I'm trying to wrap my head around Joint Ventures. I get that the owners get to use the components, IF there are no vetos. But do they use the items in their own spacecraft, or do they launch a JV one?

I'd love some examples to help clarify my understanding. Here are some of my ponderings:

Assume that ESA is a Joint venture between NASA and France's Agency.

Assume that (somehow on a previous turn) ESA currently owns three Junos and an Eagle.

If they are on Earth, can the NASA player just transfer them to a Spacecraft he is building on earth (assuming he gets French permission)?

If they are in Lunar Orbit, in an ESA spacecraft, can the NASA player land the spacecraft on the Moon, and then re-launch the Eagle from the surface?
Would they do so as an ESA spacecraft, or as a NASA spacecraft?
If there were mission points to be had for Landing on the Moon, would the points go to NASA, or to the ESA?

Where do ESA assets come from in the first place? Are they ALL "donated" by their member agencies, or do the Trading Agencies have a budget?

Is this like 18xx rail games, and the starting $10 Million goes to the Joint Venture as its starting budget? Or does it go to the bank, representing the cost of setting up the Agency and its bureaucracy?

I know Joe writes the rules in an "exact" manner, so when "the rule states x y z", it only does "x y z", and nothing else. But I'm having trouble understanding how to make use of that. Perhaps I just need a few hints or a primer with an example or two of :
- how a Joint Venture builds a spacecraft
- where did it get the components (all "donated", no budget to purchase them, although cash donated to them could buy components?)
- do they have their own advancement (I don't think so)
- do they fly their own spacecraft, or do spacecraft assembled from JV parts fly as part of one of its owner agencies?

Speaking of which, can Non-Trading Agencies still Rent launch space from other Non-Trading Agencies?
Example: I have a double Saturn V going to Earth orbit, with 18 load. Can I ""rent"" the 2 space to another non-trading Venture? Do they give me a 2 load component, and I "give it back" once in orbit?
 
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Nocturnal Carnivore

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I realize that this has gone unanswered for half a year now but I think these are important questions that people who get the expansion in their hands for the first time may have, so I'll try to answer them. The rulebook can be found here: https://lumenaris.com/docs/Leaving%20Earth%20Stations%20-%20...
GerryRailBaron wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my head around Joint Ventures. I get that the owners get to use the components, IF there are no vetos. But do they use the items in their own spacecraft, or do they launch a JV one?
Joint Ventures (JVs) can own and use money, components, and spacecraft, and they can accumulate victory points, but they cannot own technology.

As a member (investor / shareholder) in a JV, provided the other members agree to your action, you can have the JV do anything with the components that you could do with your own components, including assembling them into a spacecraft owned by the JV, plus you can transfer them to your ownership by making a trade in the JV's name with your own agency.

GerryRailBaron wrote:
Assume that ESA is a Joint venture between NASA and France's Agency.

Assume that (somehow on a previous turn) ESA currently owns three Junos and an Eagle.

If they are on Earth, can the NASA player just transfer them to a Spacecraft he is building on earth (assuming he gets French permission)?
Yes.

GerryRailBaron wrote:
If they are in Lunar Orbit, in an ESA spacecraft, can the NASA player land the spacecraft on the Moon, and then re-launch the Eagle from the surface?
Yes.
The NASA player would test his own Juno technology and Landing technology to perform these maneuvers with the ESA spacecraft.

GerryRailBaron wrote:
Would they do so as an ESA spacecraft, or as a NASA spacecraft?
In the example as stated, this is an ESA spacecraft.
If the other member(s) agreed, NASA could have transferred ownership of the craft to himself first, in which case it becomes a NASA spacecraft, but allowing that is not a good play for them - see below.
GerryRailBaron wrote:
If there were mission points to be had for Landing on the Moon, would the points go to NASA, or to the ESA?
ESA gets all the mission points.

If the spacecraft were transferred to NASA ownership first, NASA would get the points. This is why the other owner should veto that action.

At the end of the game, ESA's accumulated victory points would be divided between the shareholders (whoever they are at game end) in the proportion of shares that they own at that time. Decimals are not rounded.

GerryRailBaron wrote:
Where do ESA assets come from in the first place? Are they ALL "donated" by their member agencies, or do the Trading Agencies have a budget?
All assets are donated by member agencies. Money owned by the JV can be spent on components owned by the JV.

JVs do not get a budget, but their money also doesn't reset from year to year. That means a JV can be used as a piggy-bank, and a canny group of players will use this to their advantage for short-term loans and testing needs.

Member agencies can make non-binding agreements like, "we'll each donate another $10 of our budget this year to the JV so we can do some testing with it. Money will be used to buy off outcomes, and advancements will be shared with all members." I've had years where each member agency gave nearly all their assets to the JV to get a fast leg up in cooperative R&D.

GerryRailBaron wrote:
Is this like 18xx rail games, and the starting $10 Million goes to the Joint Venture as its starting budget? Or does it go to the bank, representing the cost of setting up the Agency and its bureaucracy?
The latter. The money is "lost" in the bureaucracy of setting up the joint venture.

GerryRailBaron wrote:
- how a Joint Venture builds a spacecraft
Members donate money and/or components to the JV. Active player buys and assembles components into a spacecraft, with unanimous approval of the other members.
GerryRailBaron wrote:
- where did it get the components (all "donated", no budget to purchase them, although cash donated to them could buy components?)
Correct.
GerryRailBaron wrote:
- do they have their own advancement (I don't think so)
No - the active player's advancements are used. Outcomes can be removed from that player's advancement with her national agency's money.
GerryRailBaron wrote:
- do they fly their own spacecraft, or do spacecraft assembled from JV parts fly as part of one of its owner agencies?
Spacecraft can only be owned by one entity at a time, whether JV or national agency. JVs can fly their own spacecraft on missions - provided one member is controlling them with consent from all the others.

GerryRailBaron wrote:
Speaking of which, can Non-Trading Agencies still Rent launch space from other Non-Trading Agencies?
No.

"Renting" launch space is a series of trades, and Non-Trading Agencies (meaning national agencies with no stake in any Joint Venture) cannot trade - except to buy a stake in a JV for money.
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Gerry Smit
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NocturnalCarnivore wrote:
but they cannot own technology


THAT is probably THE piece I had missed about JV. I certainly don't recall reading that part. Probably my eyes were glossing over by then. From that one phrase a LOT of my ponderings can be resolved. Thanks!

Now to read the rest of your post.
 
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Gerry Smit
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Quick follow up question.

Again, in the above ESA JV between France & NASA:

NASA researches Juno Advancement, buys 5, and tests 3 of them. THe first two are Failures, and NASA pays the $5 each to remove them. The last test is Success, and removed for free. NASA now has safe, guaranteed Juno technology. NASA donates a Juno to the ESA, and ends its turn.

France does not yet have Juno tech, and decides to Test the Juno in the ESA with NASA's approval. So here comes the crucial questions:

a) They get the Juno advancement for free, but does it come with 3 unknown Outcome cards? Or with no outcome cards? I'm pretty sure it's the former.



Now assume NASA has Saturn Advancement tested to safety, and France has Soyuz Advancement tested to safety , (which, for some reason, they insist is pronounced en francais as "Ariane", but that's not important right now).

NASA donates 2 Saturns to ESA, France donates 2 Soyuz and a bunch of probes, etc, to ESA.

On NASA's turn they assemble 2 Saturns, 2 Soyuzs, and all those probes into a single ESA super-spacecraft. NASA launches the spacecraft to Near Earth, then Earth Orbit. No Saturn outcomes remain to check so the spacecraft safly reaches orbit. NASA ends their turn. France now takes the same ESA spacecraft and launches towards Mars Orbit. No outcome necessary, and it's on it way. That's all correct, right?
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Roger BW
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When player A gets an advancement from player B, they get as many outcome cards as are on it at the time. (They are newly drawn from the outcome deck.) I think it's been established, though I can't find a rules reference right now, that this also applies if you give them a single example of the technology - they need the advancement in order to be able to operate it.

In your joint venture example, I think the key is "you may use its assets as if they were your own" – so NASA uses the ESA asset, and automatically gets the safe Soyuz advancement by looking at the Soyuz on the vehicle they're launching. But there aren't any Saturns left on the craft, so France doesn't get the same benefit. (That should probably be in their contract.)
 
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Gerry Smit
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That's what I remember from Leaving Earth, but I thought that Stations changed that. Time for me to re-read Stations now that I understand things better.
 
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It's my interpretation of the Joint Venture rules, which may be incorrect - but that's how I'd read it if I were at the table.
 
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Gerry Smit
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Actually, IIRC I thought it went like this:

If they give you an item, such as a Juno rocket, you get the Juno Advancement with the usual number of outcomes.

If they give you the Advancement itself, you get it with the same number of outcomes as your supplier has on it.

Or is it vice-versa? (But really, I need to re-read the pertinent parts of the base game rules , and all of Stations. It's been too long since I last played to be sure. )
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Roger BW
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Looking at rules v4m, giving an Advancement definitely gives the same number of Outcome cards that you already have. (p.33 Co-Operation)

I see nothing in LE or Stations about automatic transfer of required advancements with technology loans.
 
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Joe Fatula
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The relevant rules are as follows:

Page 23 of Leaving Earth rules, under "Maneuvering":

When you fire a rocket or an ion thruster, draw an outcome card from your advancement for that rocket/thruster to see if it is successful.*

*If you do not have an advancement for that rocket/thruster — because someone else gave you a component that you could not purchase — you gain the advancement automatically at this time, along with a full set of outcomes on it, just as if you had researched the advancement yourself.


Page 33 of Leaving Earth rules, under "Co-operation":

You can even share research — the other agency takes one of the same advancement card, putting as many outcomes on it as you have on yours.

Page 23 of Stations rules, under "Joint Ventures: Taking Actions":

Whenever you need to draw an outcome because of your use of joint venture assets, draw from your own advancement just as if you were using your own agency’s assets.*

*Just as in the base game, if you fire a rocket that you do not have an advancement for, you immediately gain a copy of that advancement from the bank with a full complement of outcomes on it.
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Gerry Smit
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Cool! I remembered that part correctly!

Thanks Joe!
 
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Roger BW
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Thanks! And I assume gifts of other advancement-requiring components (e.g Apollo's Re-Entry) would use the same rules as the rockets: acquire the advancement plus full set of outcome cards at the moment when you first need to draw an outcome.
 
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Joe Fatula
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Firedrake wrote:
Thanks! And I assume gifts of other advancement-requiring components (e.g Apollo's Re-Entry) would use the same rules as the rockets: acquire the advancement plus full set of outcome cards at the moment when you first need to draw an outcome.

No such rule exists.

So if you have, say, an Apollo capsule but no Re-entry advancement, that capsule will burn up when facing the atmospheric entry hazard.
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