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Subject: Unintuitive Attack Modifier Card rss

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Arthur Janicek
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Had to do some digging to figure this one out. It sure would be nice to have a FAQ entry clarifying the effects of this Attack Modifier Card.

Spoiler (click to reveal)

P.8 Rulebook says the following but it's still unclear how this Attack Modifier Card would work.
"Consumed cards can only be refreshed during a scenario by specific abilities."
 
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Disco Lando
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3 spears spoiler.
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Works like a regular +0 attack modifier card, plus it lets you immediately refresh one item of any type. Works on both spent (tapped like poison dagger) items and consumed items (like potions).
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Jay Johnson
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the rulebook states:
rulebook pg 27 wrote:
In the case of both recover and refresh, the type of card gained (discarded or lost for ability cards, spent or
consumed for item cards) is specified in the ability.

but as far as I can tell, nothing is specified on this one.
the perk that adds this refers to the card as "refresh item", but it doesn't specify if it works on consumed items, spent items, or both.
going strictly by the design of the icons, this "refresh" icon is the opposite of the "spent" icon, which would lead me to believe that it would only affect spent items, but icon design doesn't always tell the whole story.
 
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Arthur Janicek
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This was ruled in by Isaac in another thread but never made it to the FAQ.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1742258/perk-refresh-item-c...
 
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Alex Florin
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I'll add it now.
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Alex Florin
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What is the card number on that?
 
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Björn R.
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aflorin wrote:
What is the card number on that?


144, 145, 146
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Arthur Janicek
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Saw class has one too.
 
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Alex Florin
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Daemon6 wrote:
Saw class has one too.


Card numbers?
 
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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Daemon6 wrote:
This was ruled in by Isaac in another thread but never made it to the FAQ.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1742258/perk-refresh-item-c...


Cephalofair wrote:
When you apply its effect, you can refresh any spent or consumed item you have equipped.
 
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Tom L
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Wait, it's any spent or consumed?! I've been playing only refresh a spent item. This class seems even stronger now!
 
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Arthur Janicek
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aflorin wrote:
Daemon6 wrote:
Saw class has one too.


Card numbers?
271
 
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Arthur Janicek
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toml88 wrote:
Wait, it's any spent or consumed?! I've been playing only refresh a spent item. This class seems even stronger now!
Yes! Consumed! Hahahaha!
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Hang on, guys, are we sure this is what's intended for the card that comes with the Saw class? I see in that other thread Isaac confirmed it for Three Spears, but I'm not so sure Saw's works on both spent and consumed items.

Saw
Spoiler (click to reveal)
On the Saw class character sheet, it specifically says "refresh an item."

It was my understanding that "refresh" specifically refers to getting a spent (rotated 90 degrees) item back, while "recover" refers to getting a consumed (flipped) item back.

If that's right, then wouldn't it have to say "refresh or recover an item" on the character sheet?


Otherwise, what's the point of this passage:
rulebook pg 27 wrote:
In the case of both recover and refresh, the type of card gained (discarded or lost for ability cards, spent or consumed for item cards) is specified in the ability.


Now that I've written this all out, I guess it's that "recover" actually refers to ability cards while "refresh" refers to item cards, rather than "recover" referring to lost/consumed and "refresh" referring to discarded/spent.
 
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Graeme
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Dexter345 wrote:
Hang on, guys, are we sure this is what's intended for the card that comes with the Saw class? I see in that other thread Isaac confirmed it for Three Spears, but I'm not so sure Saw's works on both spent and consumed items.

Saw
Spoiler (click to reveal)
On the Saw class character sheet, it specifically says "refresh an item."

It was my understanding that "refresh" specifically refers to getting a spent (rotated 90 degrees) item back, while "recover" refers to getting a consumed (flipped) item back.

If that's right, then wouldn't it have to say "refresh or recover an item" on the character sheet?


Otherwise, what's the point of this passage:
rulebook pg 27 wrote:
In the case of both recover and refresh, the type of card gained (discarded or lost for ability cards, spent or consumed for item cards) is specified in the ability.


Now that I've written this all out, I guess it's that "recover" actually refers to ability cards while "refresh" refers to item cards, rather than "recover" referring to lost/consumed and "refresh" referring to discarded/spent.


The line from the rulebook that's immediately above the one you quoted makes it quite clear:
rulebook pg 27 wrote:
Refresh abilities allow players to regain the use of spent or consumed item cards.

Now, a long rest explicitly says it refreshes spent items. Other things, like a prosperity 2 item explicitly says it refreshes a consumed item
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Empowering Talisman


If nothing is stated, that line from page 27 of the rulebook makes it clear it could be either spent or consumed.

And to make it absolutely clear, without doubt, from the General section for the Saw class from the FAQs:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Attack Modifier Card - Refresh Item (Card 271):
Using this card allows you to refresh one consumed or one spent item you have equipped.
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Darren Nakamura
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CrashTestDummy wrote:
And to make it absolutely clear, without doubt, from the General section for the Saw class from the FAQs:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Attack Modifier Card - Refresh Item (Card 271):
Using this card allows you to refresh one consumed or one spent item you have equipped.


Right, but that FAQ entry came from this ruling, which was specifically for the Three Spears class, which is why I was questioning it for the Saw class.

I can see that it is the way it is, so thank you. It just seems very powerful. Our Saw player sees that attack modifier about once per scenario, which he can then use on a stamina potion, which is a huge boon.
 
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Graeme
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Dexter345 wrote:
Right, but that FAQ entry came from this ruling, which was specifically for the Three Spears class, which is why I was questioning it for the Saw class.

I can see that it is the way it is, so thank you. It just seems very powerful. Our Saw player sees that attack modifier about once per scenario, which he can then use on a stamina potion, which is a huge boon.

That quote was from the Saw class official FAQ. If you want to question the FAQ as to whether it is correct, then I don't know where to go from here. It's a ruling from the game designer, via Alex (who manages the FAQs). If you want to disagree, then we're moving into Variant territory, not Rules.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I think I'm not getting across what I'm trying to.

Alex put that in the FAQ for the Saw class based on the ruling for the Three Spears class. It turns out they work the same, but my question came up because I wasn't sure if anybody asked Isaac specifically about the Saw class, on the chance that it worked differently.

I realize it doesn't now, but that's where the source of my being unsure came from. I'm not trying to variant anything here. I'm saying that it seemed possible the FAQ was wrong in one particular instance because we didn't ask the right questions, which it has been in the past. It's not like that's unprecedented.
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Graeme
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Okay, now I understand

The impression I have is that Alex runs every change to the FAQs past Isaac before making them. It's possible he didn't do so with this one, but I would be surprised if that's the case. It may have been something like:

"Hey, Isaac, that ruling on the Item Refresh perk...does that apply to all Item Refresh perks?"

"Of course. Why would we want the same perk to be treated differently for different classes?"

If that's the case, it may not have been an explicit question about the Saw class, but again, we don't know exactly what was said between Isaac and Alex.

Unless someone tells me otherwise, I'm going to assume that Isaac has, in one form or another, approved the FAQs.
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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both the saw modifier card and the three spears modifier card are exactly identical, so why would they work differently?
Both are able to refresh a spent or consumed item.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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The icon is exactly identical between refreshing spent and/or consumed items, even when those abilities explicitly do different things. Making the icon exactly identical was a mistake, in my opinion. It's actually part of what led to my confusion initially.

They could be described with different text on the character sheet. The rules allow for that. (They are not, and I understand that now.) Like, one character sheet could hypothetically have said "refresh one spent item," and the card would look the same because the icon is (unwisely) the same icon.

From a fuzzier, thematic perspective, I get why Three Spears would be able to do this (as I understand it, he is a master of item usage). And I don't really get why Saw is able to. He is a battlefield surgeon, what does he know about re-energizing a magical item, for instance?

From a mechanical/game design perspective, it seemed too powerful to be correct.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I understand now that I was mistaken, but I'm trying to let you see why it isn't completely stupid to make this mistake, as you seem to be implying.
 
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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Dexter345 wrote:

EDIT: Just to be clear, I understand now that I was mistaken, but I'm trying to let you see why it isn't completely stupid to make this mistake, as you seem to be implying.

I did not implied any of such thing. It is not very nice to put words in others people mouth...

I just merely stated that nothing indicates that they should work differently.
 
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Des T.
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Dexter345 wrote:

From a mechanical/game design perspective, it seemed too powerful to be correct.


How is this more powerful on Saw than it is on Spears? Even with Saw pushing the limits by combo-ing the effect with other cards to get muptiple refreshes out of one proc, Saw still can't expolit it half as well as Spears.
 
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