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Subject: Question about loot and treasure. rss

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Alex Bell
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If you are in the last room in a scenario, and there are coins and a treasure chest and you kill all the enemies, do you get the coins or the chest in there? Also if the coins were placed there because of the scenario book, not the enemies dying does that make a difference? Thanks
 
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Paul T.
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x_qLeX wrote:
If you are in the last room in a scenario, and there are coins and a treasure chest and you kill all the enemies, do you get the coins or the chest in there? Also if the coins were placed there because of the scenario book, not the enemies dying does that make a difference? Thanks


You don't get them automatically, but once you complete the scenario objectives you play the rest of the current round (both players and monsters) so you might have the opportunity to loot them in your turn.
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Jay Johnson
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you never automatically get any treasure (coins or chests).
you only get what you pick up via loot actions or end-of-turn looting (what you're standing on at the end of your turn).

Well, some scenarios do give out gold/items/designs as scenario rewards, which are gotten the first time the scenario is completed in campaign mode, which don't require a loot action, since they never appear on the board.
 
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Goran Topic
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So, say in Scenario #1, the goal is "kill everything"; does the game obligatorily end at the end of the turn when the goal is reached, and if you haven't looted the coins and the treasure that's tough luck for you? (We went and explicitly looted during the same round we killed the last enemy, just to be safe, but it was a question in our first game this weekend.)
 
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At the end of the round, not that characters turn. But yes, you don't get free time to pick things up.
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Nicholas Shopoff
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Which by the way, if you've got any cards left and you can spare the time, leave up a monster at the end and run around looting for a second (assuming it's not down to the wire!).
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Matt Drake
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It's good to get clarification on this one, but it raises an enormous question for us. Two, really.

One, why? Why not just let us gather all the goodies once the bad guys are dropped?

Two, what kind of thematic justification is there for making us leave all the money behind? I mean, if we came for the loot, why would we leave it on the floor when there's nobody there to stop us taking it? Hell, one adventure we did, after the end, the story said 'you take the time to gather up the treasure.' Well, how about gathering up the treasure that was just laying around on the floor?

And three, the big one, how badly does it break the game to let us gather anything that was on the floor and just split it evenly between the characters who are there?

Honestly, this rule just seems pointless. If you're trying to invoke the feeling of playing something like D&D, then let us pick up the goods. We're supposed to be mercenaries, not holy paladins, so snatching up anything that isn't nailed down is practically in the job description. It feels like the rule was created because we're not supposed to be sharing money between us (another rule I don't really understand), and if we can split the take at the end of a run, there's no clean way to divvy it up. It feels like extrapolating a rule that doesn't make a lot of sense in the first place in order to justify the existence of that first rule (which doesn't really make a ton of sense to me anyway - if it's supposed to feel like an RPG, then let us decide for ourselves if we're greedy bastards).
 
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Elias Helfer
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VixenTorGames wrote:
It's good to get clarification on this one, but it raises an enormous question for us. Two, really.

One, why? Why not just let us gather all the goodies once the bad guys are dropped?


The loot mechanic becomes irrelevant if you can just keep looting after the bad guys are done. It also provides for an anticlimactic ending.

Also, it means you can plan who gets what. But part of the challenge of this game is that all characters will go away eventually, so you must strive to make sure that all characters (particularly your own) gets XP and stuff.

VixenTorGames wrote:
Two, what kind of thematic justification is there for making us leave all the money behind? I mean, if we came for the loot, why would we leave it on the floor when there's nobody there to stop us taking it? Hell, one adventure we did, after the end, the story said 'you take the time to gather up the treasure.' Well, how about gathering up the treasure that was just laying around on the floor?


You have to be somewhere else. You are tired. You don't see it.

Also, this is a board game, not an RPG. There will be board game abstractions, because there is no GM.

VixenTorGames wrote:

And three, the big one, how badly does it break the game to let us gather anything that was on the floor and just split it evenly between the characters who are there?


I think it would take some of the tension and excitement away. It is also an opening to alpha game in a game that really strives to prevent alpha gaming.

Also, see above. It means that you can just stock up that level 1 character, making it much, much easier to start a new character.

I think you are being very harsh to this rule. It is a board game rule for sure, but Gloomhaven IS a board game, even if it emulates an RPG. How come you can't use the same move twice in a row? Because that is the way this game works. I can see some really good reasons for this rule. Obviously, you can play differently if you want to - it's your game. But you might wreck some things in the long run, including taking a lot of the excitement out of the character and party progression.
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Fito R
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Why? Because it adds tension to the gameplay. Having to balance enemies, your own card management, your secret battle goal, the actual scenario objective, possibly your retirement goal, and also juggling your sometimes unpredictable allies all add to the tension of the moment to moment gameplay. Picking up loot is part of that.

As for "does it break the game", well, it breaks it a bit. It introduces the problem of how do you split that loot up. It also completely removes the tension in the gameplay, since if you decide to pick up all loot after a scenario is over, you are effectively nullifying all Loot actions, which is not minor. Characters like the Scoundrel, which rely on having more money that other classes for advancement get a significant nerf. There is also no reason to attempt to go out of your way to open a chest if you just get it at the end, which also makes trapped chests harmless.

Of course, if you think this impacts your enjoyment of the game, then go ahead and change it. No one will stop you. But it's there for a reason.
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Trond Roaas
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The rule is there for balance reasons - to make you plan your moves, and to utilize the loot mechanic.

Thematically - you don't have time. More baddies are about to arrive - the temple crumbles - you need to get home in in time.
Personally I picture my characters running from an enormous rolling boulder, Indiana Jones style, to the theme of Yakety Sax.
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Matt Drake
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OK, what about this. At the end, you get all the coin markers on the floor, and just split 'em as evenly as possible. You only get the chest if someone opened it. You don't get the money you left on the floor in other rooms - you left that there and moved on, so it's gone now.

I think it's far more detrimental to the game to arbitrarily leave one guy standing there so you can run around and pick up loot. That seems absurdly cheesy - just single out one weak nimrod and leave him to swing wildly at the designated meat shield while the other characters snatch up all the dough. At the point that you're deliberately leaving one doofus to be the designated dingbat while you loot circles around him, I contend that you've broken any sense of immersion that you may have generated getting here in the first place.

I understand it's a board game. But the problem is that in a dungeon crawl game - a genre defined by the story you're creating - elements that drastically damage the theme are counter to the entire reason you're playing in the first place. I mean, the game has a gigantic story book. It's obviously a story-telling game. It feels utterly counter-intuitive to read a paragraph describing how you picked up all the money when the rules just told you to leave all the money.

I also totally get that Gloomhaven is a different kind of dungeon crawl game. It's a cross-genre thing where we add European sensibilities to a game genre that is the quintessential definition of non-Euro games. Euro games are practically defined by emphasis on mechanics over theme, by phrases like worker placement and resource management. So I'm not simply ignoring the fact that this is a different kind of game. I'm even building justifications to explain why catching his breath made your cleric forget how to bandage a wound. I just think this one rule forces decisions that are counter to what the game is trying to do in the first place.

Oh also:

eliashelfer wrote:
I think you are being very harsh to this rule. It is a board game rule for sure, but Gloomhaven IS a board game, even if it emulates an RPG. How come you can't use the same move twice in a row? Because that is the way this game works. I can see some really good reasons for this rule. Obviously, you can play differently if you want to - it's your game. But you might wreck some things in the long run, including taking a lot of the excitement out of the character and party progression.


I am 100% on board with this. The abilities on the cards - the ones that you can't repeat twice in a row - actually add a ton of immersion and make the game a lot more interesting. The card mechanic may not make a ton of sense thematically, but like I said, it's a Euro dungeon crawl so I'm making room for that. I would also get bored if I just did the same thing over and over - it's one of the reasons I never finished Mice & Mystics, which is hilariously fun until it gets super repetitive. I'm not discounting the Euro enhancements to the genre. I'm just not following how the 'leave the loot' rule makes the game more fun, especially since the alternative is to take any semblance of immersion and burn it alive.
 
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Matt Drake
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Trondster wrote:
The rule is there for balance reasons - to make you plan your moves, and to utilize the loot mechanic.

Thematically - you don't have time. More baddies are about to arrive - the temple crumbles - you need to get home in in time.
Personally I picture my characters running from an enormous rolling boulder, Indiana Jones style, to the theme of Yakety Sax.


But more bad guys can't come, the temple can't crumble, the boulder can't roll until the last bad guy falls? Your curfew doesn't kick in until you've wasted the last minion? Timer countdowns could enforce that urgency - the temple is crumbling whether there's a guy there or not - but not running out of time until the last enemy falls is thematically unpalatable.

I concede that dungeon crawls are my favorite kind of game. Hell, they're about all I buy any more. I just backed Core Space and I'm backing Chronicle X now, because those might not have dungeons but they're still definitely dungeon crawls. HeroQuest, Warhammer Quest, Siege of the Citadel, Massive Darkness, even Zombicide - that's what I love. I have so much Super Dungeon Explore that I store it in a giant steamer trunk. And that bias is definitely coloring my analysis of Gloomhaven. I am trying to experience the game the way the designer intended, but the idea of making completely absurd decisions to work around a basic rule is just bugging the crap out of me.
 
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Arthur Janicek
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It's a board game. When you're playing monopoly, you can't just hover around "GO" and keep collecting $200.
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Fito R
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Those "completely absurd decisions" you decry are the game. They are not the things that are in the way of enjoying the game, they literally are the game. The tension you feel when you have two elites barreling down on you, few cards in hand, the double tick battle goal of don't use items and also that juicy chest in the corner, and not enough time to do it all. All of those things combined are the game.
The extra loot often found in the last room of a dungeon is there by design to elevate the feeling of tension. Yes, it turns GH into more of a puzzle euro game than a through-and-through dungeon crawler, but that's what Gloomhaven is.

It's okay to not like the rule, but understand that it's there for a reason, and it absolutely serves its function.
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Greg Filpus
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Until the scenario goal is fulfilled, the characters are still adventuring, so the Adventurers' Guild has looting rights. Once the adventure ends, the loot belongs to the Scavengers' Guild or the Thieves' Guild, (depending on whether or not the location has an owner once the party's done with it) who are way stingier about this sort of thing.
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Arthur Janicek
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@ Matt Drake.

The scenario you've mentioned a couple of times with the conclusion text that says something like "you collect the loot..." If I'm not mistaken, there is actual bonus gold as a reward for completing the scenario so that's totally in step with the text and is completely thematically sound.
 
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Corey Fry
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VixenTorGames wrote:
I think it's far more detrimental to the game to arbitrarily leave one guy standing there so you can run around and pick up loot. That seems absurdly cheesy - just single out one weak nimrod and leave him to swing wildly at the designated meat shield while the other characters snatch up all the dough. At the point that you're deliberately leaving one doofus to be the designated dingbat while you loot circles around him, I contend that you've broken any sense of immersion that you may have generated getting here in the first place.


Yeah, this has happened a few times with my group. Our solution was to increase the difficulty so our fights were close enough to the point where fooling around with enemies simply wasn't an option if we wanted to win the scenario.

That said, Gloomhaven does not have very thematic combat. I've always been surprised at people comparing the game to DnD or praising the theme, since to me it feels like the designer wasn't too focused on thematics for the guts of the game. Battle goals and personal quests have resulted in our characters doing silly things like intentionally walking on traps. The enemy AI has had archers run into melee or enemies shamble over traps they placed themselves. Combat has very silly antics on a regular basis.

I see Gloomhaven as a mechanics-focused dungeon crawler with a push-your-luck/risk-reward system that encourages you to try to get extra rewards at the cost of the scenario/your teammates. I feel like players will be disappointed if they compare it to "proper" story-telling games. Gloomhaven sees the puzzle of the dungeon as the first-class citizen and is willing to compromise other parts of the game (e.g. theme) to make that as interesting and full of choices as possible.
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Jay Johnson
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if you're going to auto-loot at the end, why even bother with gold at all? just let characters take whatever items are available in store
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Des T.
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Quote:
The scenario you've mentioned a couple of times with the conclusion text that says something like "you collect the loot..." If I'm not mistaken, there is actual bonus gold as a reward for completing the scenario so that's totally in step with the text and is completely thematically sound.


Also, in most scenarios, the characters are literally on the brink of collapsing from exhaustion. You can bet they don't want to hang around and get ambushed by reinforcements/enemies they may have missed/opportunistic scavengers/the city guard, and so on. They're mercenaries, not holy paladins, so they can't expect to be applauded for the massacre they commited.

Joou wrote:
Those "completely absurd decisions" you decry are the game. They are not the things that are in the way of enjoying the game, they literally are the game. The tension you feel when you have two elites barreling down on you, few cards in hand, the double tick battle goal of don't use items and also that juicy chest in the corner, and not enough time to do it all. All of those things combined are the game.
The extra loot often found in the last room of a dungeon is there by design to elevate the feeling of tension. Yes, it turns GH into more of a puzzle euro game than a through-and-through dungeon crawler, but that's what Gloomhaven is.

It's okay to not like the rule, but understand that it's there for a reason, and it absolutely serves its function.


This. So very much this. Gloomhaven is all about choices and tradeoffs.

As the BGG mantra goes: "It's your game, you can play it however you want." But, keep in mind that the game is balanced around limited looting.

So if you decide to turn autoloot on in your game, and come back after 2-5 scenarios and complain about the game being too easy, someone will remember this thread and call you out on it.
 
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Matt Drake
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DeS_Tructive wrote:
So if you decide to turn autoloot on in your game, and come back after 2-5 scenarios and complain about the game being too easy, someone will remember this thread and call you out on it.


Well I promise not to do that.

Ironically, I found myself on the opposite side of this same discussion as I played with my family. They were becoming irritated that a long rest required them to lose a card. Their complaints were sensible, from a thematic point of view - Conan never forgot how to jump over things because he sat down for a breather. I did my best to explain that the mechanic in this case was more important than the theme, but they all told me that I could enjoy the mechanic by myself, thank you very much, so now long rests don't make us lose a card from our hands. Short rests still work the same way - I more or less forced a concession on that point - but now the only penalty to a long rest is missing your turn.

Don't bother telling me how badly we've mangled the game. I know. I even agree. But I dropped a C-note on this damned thing so I could play it with my family, so I've thrown in the towel. I'll probably start increasing the level without telling anyone, once they start getting good at it. Right now we're still getting our asses kicked, even with our kiddie rules.
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Arthur Janicek
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Ha! Nice to hear you've had a semi-change-of-heart.
 
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Fito R
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Gloomhaven is fundamentally a game about mechanics, not one of theme. It has a very good theme, but it is completely secondary to the mechanics. If at any point you think "that's not thematic at all!" you are missing the point by a country mile.

Eliminating the rule that long resting loses you a card completely breaks the game in ways that autolooting could only dream of. I can't knock you if you still enjoy the game this way, but know that the game you are playing is not Gloomhaven, it merely resembles it a bit.
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Des T.
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VixenTorGames wrote:
...Their complaints were sensible, from a thematic point of view - Conan never forgot how to jump over things because he sat down for a breather...


It might not be of use now, but:

Conan isn't forgetting. Remember that scene in the second Indiana Jones movie, where he's setting up for a massive sword vs. whip fight, redecides and shoots the guy down?
That's what happens in Gloomhaven. Conan goes, "Damn I'm exhausted. I better stop jumping over things, or I'll collapse in no time."

On the other hand, there's nothing against increasing/reducing the difficulty by whatever's appropiate to counteract variants. With this specific version (and even though it's very strongly worded, I have to agree with Jouu that it's game-breaking), I'd add at least +2 to the difficulty, because you have to make sure that four cards per rotation will be lost.

To be frank, though:
If the people I play with wouldn't play a game without breaking its rules to the point of it being a completely different game, I'd first have a very serious talk with them.

I'd discuss how some rules are necessary, even if we don't like them. I'd ask if they are really arguing realism, or arguing because the rule makes them uncomfortable (by making them face a difficult choice, or by disturbing the power fantasy are reasons that instantly come to mind). I'd note that their argument could equally be made for any and all card losses, and even for discards.

I'd end the talk by explaining how that the loss of cards is a core concept of the game, and if they disagree with it, Gloomhaven simply isn't the game for them, and I'll gladly play something else with them. There's enough people interested in Gloomhaven to find a group in every town.

I've had discussions like this before. In most cases, it put things back in to perspective, but sometimes (mostly when it was with players attending one of my larps), it led to the player leaving. I believe that, in those cases, the players had very different issues that had nothing to do with the game, and were channeling it in the game and/or discussion.
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Arthur Janicek
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VixenTorGames wrote:
DeS_Tructive wrote:
So if you decide to turn autoloot on in your game, and come back after 2-5 scenarios and complain about the game being too easy, someone will remember this thread and call you out on it.


Well I promise not to do that.

Ironically, I found myself on the opposite side of this same discussion as I played with my family. They were becoming irritated that a long rest required them to lose a card. Their complaints were sensible, from a thematic point of view - Conan never forgot how to jump over things because he sat down for a breather. I did my best to explain that the mechanic in this case was more important than the theme, but they all told me that I could enjoy the mechanic by myself, thank you very much, so now long rests don't make us lose a card from our hands. Short rests still work the same way - I more or less forced a concession on that point - but now the only penalty to a long rest is missing your turn.

Don't bother telling me how badly we've mangled the game. I know. I even agree. But I dropped a C-note on this damned thing so I could play it with my family, so I've thrown in the towel. I'll probably start increasing the level without telling anyone, once they start getting good at it. Right now we're still getting our asses kicked, even with our kiddie rules.
Really feel like you need rescuing from a less than stellar gaming group. surprise
 
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Jay Johnson
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Daemon6 wrote:
Really feel like you need rescuing from a less than stellar gaming group. surprise

the OP said they play with family, and society kind of frowns upon kicking someone out of one's family due to their board game quirks.
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