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Subject: Dragonfire Level when discarding with a Deadfall rss

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George Pai
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At the end of a round, when discarding a Dragonfire card with a Deadfall icon is the Dragonfire level calculated with or without the card being discarded?

Example:

Start of the first scene we pulled the Dangerous Waters card, which has a Deadfall of 1+. At the time we are obviously at Dragonfire Level 0.

Now when we discard the Dangerous Waters card at the end of the round is the Dragonfire Level still 0 (and the Deadfall effect is ignored) or is the Dragonfire Level 1, in which case the Deadfall effect occurs?
 
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toeknee n
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In your example, it's still Dragonfire Level 0.

See the following thread: Dangeorus Waters Dragonfire card on turn 1?

By extension then, a Deadfall effect which checks the Dragonfire Level doesn't count itself in the Dragonfire Level.
 
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Chris Lawson
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DoctaWho wrote:
By extension then, a Deadfall effect which checks the Dragonfire Level doesn't count itself in the Dragonfire Level.

While this does seem to be the sensible way of playing, the rules themselves don't really help you reach this conclusion.

On page 11, the description for the Deadfall icon is as follows.
Quote:
Deadfall: This icon indicates that the effect triggers
when the card is placed in the Dragonfire discard.

This tells us to trigger the effect once the card has been placed in the discard. This can easily be interpreted to mean that the instructions on the card (with include checking the DF level) are now obeyed. Doing so means the DF level has increased by one because the card is now in the discard pile.

This question has come up a few times now so I hope that it gets included in the official FAQ.
 
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toeknee n
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xris wrote:
DoctaWho wrote:
By extension then, a Deadfall effect which checks the Dragonfire Level doesn't count itself in the Dragonfire Level.

While this does seem to be the sensible way of playing, the rules themselves don't really help you reach this conclusion.

On page 11, the description for the Deadfall icon is as follows.
Quote:
Deadfall: This icon indicates that the effect triggers
when the card is placed in the Dragonfire discard.

This tells us to trigger the effect once the card has been placed in the discard. This can easily be interpreted to mean that the instructions on the card (with include checking the DF level) are now obeyed. Doing so means the DF level has increased by one because the card is now in the discard pile.

This question has come up a few times now so I hope that it gets included in the official FAQ.


It's not clear either way, but the thread I linked above has several people agreeing to the interpretation that a Deadfall effect which checks the Dragonfire Level doesn't count itself in the Dragonfire Level.

The Deadfall icon simply indicates the timing of the effect (before the start of the next round) while the number next to the icon indicates whether the effect is actually triggered:

rules pg. 11 wrote:
Some effects and card abilities trigger only when the Dragonfire level reaches a particular threshold. The number next to the Dragonfire icon shows the Dragonfire level necessary for the ability or effect to trigger.


So, if we're looking at the Dangerous Waters Dragonfire card and are currently at Dragonfire Level 0, the necessary Dragonfire Level to trigger the Deadfall isn't even met (when we discard the card).

Edit: Although the rules explicitly talk about the number next to the Dragonfire icon and doesn't do so for the Deadfall icon, it seems reasonable to interpret that the number serves the same purpose; namely, if the Dragonfire Level meets this threshold then trigger this effect.
 
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Chris Lawson
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Apologies, I wasn't trying to suggest your post was incorrect in any way. I wasn't disagreeing with what you wrote or the current perceived wisdom, it was more the case of reiterating that the rules were not clear on the matter, as shown by this question coming up several times

Like a lot of the rulebook, it seems to have assumed the reader knows the intent of the rules and has taken it as read they know what they mean.

I rather wish the FAQ would be updated with this and a number of other important updates.
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toeknee n
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xris wrote:
Apologies, I wasn't trying to suggest your post was incorrect in any way. I wasn't disagreeing with what you wrote or the current perceived wisdom, it was more the case of reiterating that the rules were not clear on the matter, as shown by this question coming up several times

Like a lot of the rulebook, it seems to have assumed the reader knows the intent of the rules and has taken it as read they know what they mean.

I rather wish the FAQ would be updated with this and a number of other important updates.


No worries; I agree with you that things could be clearer.
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B C Z
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My wife and I play that a card being acted on is not yet in the discard, and thus doesn't count towards the dragonfire level.

I believe we picked that habit up from Crossfire.
 
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Michael Kindt Dalzen
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The Dragonfire Level is determined before a new Dragonfire card is revealed. The Dragonfire Level has to be at the required threshold when the card is revealed or the effect does not occur.

Page 10 of the Dragonfire Rulebook:

Quote:
The Dragonfire level is equal to the number of cards in the Dragonfire discard; the active Dragonfire card on top of the deck does not count toward the Dragonfire level. Many effects in the game, including those on Dragonfire cards, depend on whether the Dragonfire level is at or above a particular threshold. For example, if there are four cards in the Dragonfire discard, and the Surging Evil Dragonfire card is active, then all black encounters would heal all levels. All such effects only apply if the Dragonfire level in question is reached before the Dragonfire card is revealed.


In a standard 4 player Dungeon Crawl, the Dragonfire Level is 0 when the game begins. If you reveal a Dragonfire card with a DF +1 Deadfall, it will have no effect. The Dragonfire Level is 0 before the card is revealed and for the entire round. The Deadfall effect would only be active if the Dragonfire Level was 1 when the card was initially revealed.

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Chris Lawson
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daskindt wrote:
The Dragonfire Level is determined before a new Dragonfire card is revealed. The Dragonfire Level has to be at the required threshold when the card is revealed or the effect does not occur.

Page 10 of the Dragonfire Rulebook:

Quote:
The Dragonfire level is equal to the number of cards in the Dragonfire discard; the active Dragonfire card on top of the deck does not count toward the Dragonfire level. Many effects in the game, including those on Dragonfire cards, depend on whether the Dragonfire level is at or above a particular threshold. For example, if there are four cards in the Dragonfire discard, and the Surging Evil Dragonfire card is active, then all black encounters would heal all levels. All such effects only apply if the Dragonfire level in question is reached before the Dragonfire card is revealed.


In a standard 4 player Dungeon Crawl, the Dragonfire Level is 0 when the game begins. If you reveal a Dragonfire card with a DF +1 Deadfall, it will have no effect. The Dragonfire Level is 0 before the card is revealed and for the entire round. The Deadfall effect would only be active if the Dragonfire Level was 1 when the card was initially revealed.

Yes, we know all that

The point in question here is that we are discussing the Deadfall icon and page 11 specifically tells us that the Deadfall effect only triggers once the card has been placed in the Dragonfire discard.

Since the effect has to wait until the card is in the discard, it might make sense that the Dragonfire Level is now increased because it contains an extra card in it.

While I'm sure most people don't play it that way, the point is that some people find the rules on this are vague.
 
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Michael Kindt Dalzen
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xris wrote:
daskindt wrote:
The Dragonfire Level is determined before a new Dragonfire card is revealed. The Dragonfire Level has to be at the required threshold when the card is revealed or the effect does not occur.

Page 10 of the Dragonfire Rulebook:

Quote:
The Dragonfire level is equal to the number of cards in the Dragonfire discard; the active Dragonfire card on top of the deck does not count toward the Dragonfire level. Many effects in the game, including those on Dragonfire cards, depend on whether the Dragonfire level is at or above a particular threshold. For example, if there are four cards in the Dragonfire discard, and the Surging Evil Dragonfire card is active, then all black encounters would heal all levels. All such effects only apply if the Dragonfire level in question is reached before the Dragonfire card is revealed.


In a standard 4 player Dungeon Crawl, the Dragonfire Level is 0 when the game begins. If you reveal a Dragonfire card with a DF +1 Deadfall, it will have no effect. The Dragonfire Level is 0 before the card is revealed and for the entire round. The Deadfall effect would only be active if the Dragonfire Level was 1 when the card was initially revealed.

Yes, we know all that

The point in question here is that we are discussing the Deadfall icon and page 11 specifically tells us that the Deadfall effect only triggers once the card has been placed in the Dragonfire discard.

Since the effect has to wait until the card is in the discard, it might make sense that the Dragonfire Level is now increased because it contains an extra card in it.

While I'm sure most people don't play it that way, the point is that some people find the rules on this are vague.


I’m aware there is a question, which is what I answered.

If the Deadfall effect lists a Dragonfire Level, such as Dragonfire 1+, then the Dragonfire Level must be present when the card is initially revealed. If it isn’t present when the card is initially revealed, the Deadfall is never active.

A Deadfall effect triggers when the card hits the discard, but the Deadfall effect is never a potential danger if the Dragonfire Level was below the required level when the card was initially revealed.

The Rulebook indicates you calculate the Dragonfire level for the coming Round just before revealing the new card. The Dragonfire Level isn’t re-evaluated until you next reveal a new Dragonfire card.

You don’t recalculate the Dragonfire Level when a card with Deadfall hits the discard. The Dragonfire Level for the Round was already determined just before the card was revealed.

Similarly, encounter cards that list an effect with a Dragonfire Level on them are only triggered if the Dragonfire Level at the time of Reveal matches the value. If the Dragonfire Level increases while the card is still in play, the additional effects are not reevaluated and potentially activated. (Unless that effect is marked by a Continuous icon, in which case, the Dragonfire Level is reevaluated each Round and the Continuous effect will activate once they required Dragonfire Level is reached.)
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