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Subject: Do You Replay Games You've Rated Low? rss

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Cameron Taylor
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For example, I recently rated Holland '44 a 1 on my BoardGameGeek collection. However, I also rated Ukraine '43 a 1 due to ZOC bonds. With Holland '44 I knew they were in there and just learnt to live with them as an alternative to normal ZOCs. I didn't enjoy the game because of its massive historicity issues, but I feel as though I haven't given Ukraine '43 a fair shake.

I've agreed with a friend to play Normandy '44, which he believes is the best in the series. Honestly, I'm willing to play all of the games based off the Ardennes '44 system with an open mind. My experience may change, and one bad game doesn't preclude there being good games in a series.

Another series I think I need to give a retry is those based on Bonaparte at Marengo system. My rating of The Guns of Gettysburg was a 1 because in our game the Confederate reinforcements all arrived early, whilst the Union reinforcements all arrived late, leading to a massively ahistorical one-sided battle. However, the odds of that happening twice are extremely low, so perhaps I haven't had the true experience of a 'normal' game.

Another reason why I think replaying 'bad' games is a good idea is because as the player you can attempt to fix them through house rules.

So fellow BoardGameGeeks, do you replay games you've rated low or have thought little of, just to see if your next experience will be different?
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Roger Hobden
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I am much quicker to rate high then I am to rate low.

Often I give a "low" game a second or third chance because I suspect some simple house rule might save it.



EDIT: The First World War came spontaneously to my mind just as I finished writing this ...
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Cameron Taylor
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For ones with really convoluted rules, like the naval rules in Next War: Taiwan, I feel like a simple cheat sheet for the rules process would make gameplay much smoother. That's another one I definitely have to try again.
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Luka Kovač Plavi
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I usually never rate games after only one play, and especially I don't rate them 1 because there is one thing in them I didn't like

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Enrico Viglino
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If I own a game, it comes around and gets played again.

I don't sell games. So yeah. Usually without much hope though.
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suPUR DUEper
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A "2" in the BGG rating rubric is "Extremely annoying game- won't play this every again" and a "1" is "Defies description of a game. You won't catch me dead playing this. Clearly broken"

So, no, if I rate a game as 1 or 2 I would not play it again.
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Grant Linneberg
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If I rated it a 1, I wouldn't play it again, no. But I doubt I'd rate games like the one the OP mentions a 1 just because I didn't like ZOC bonds. I'm more likely to rate such games a 3-5 as I'm sure I'd play them if an opponent really wanted to give it a go. I reserve a 1 for games that are just too stupid to ever play again. Also, usually I play a game at least a couple times before rating it (unless it's a monster). Or if I do rate it, it's a sort of provisional rating, not too high and not too low until I give it another chance.
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Juan Valdez
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For me to replay any of my lower rated games, 1 or more of following need to align:

1. The game is unique in mechanics or subject matter, and worth playing to better understand the subject matter and where and how the game failed. A recent example is SDC's Dien Bien Phu (1973), a game I believe many might rate pretty low, but I will almost surely replay as it is unique to me at that scale and gameplay.

2. One of my usual opponents wants to play it. I'll almost always accommodate.

3. I do not tend to give many games low rating. This is in part because now that I've attempted to create my own stuff, I am far, far more circumspect in my criticism. Making stuff is *hard*. So I tend to rate to account for the actual design, development, production, etc. In other words, I do make an attempt at objectivity.

4. (Anticipated) Replay to house rule a few games which are "almost there" but not quite. This is aspirational due to career focus, but I can't think of any which aren't vintage games.

I do have an number of games in my public collection which, left to my own devices, I have little intention of replaying. This is not to say these are bad games in anyway. At least some of these have some high ratings, but they are just not to my taste at all.

For the OP: ZOC bonds are kind of weird to be sure. It could be worse: Karelia '44 has "ghost units" which function similarly to create a line. At the map scale of these games, with scale of command, it seems to work pretty well. As far as games go, I've played France '40 and Ukraine '43, and consider both top flight games. For the unit density and rules complexity, they can play pretty fast. If you're able to clear the ZOC bond hurdle, you might really like these games. (And of course it's perfectly fine if not!)

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Eddy Sterckx
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Yes. I sometimes get talked into giving a particular game another try. It usually does not end well - I try not to be a jerk about it and ruin it for the other players, but the reasons I didn't like a game don't magically go away on subsequent plays so I usually end up disliking the game even more. That's how I ended up with 54 games rated a "2"

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Cameron Taylor
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mtngrown wrote:
ZOC bonds are kind of weird to be sure. It could be worse: Karelia '44 has "ghost units" which function similarly to create a line. At the map scale of these games, with scale of command, it seems to work pretty well. As far as games go, I've played France '40 and Ukraine '43, and consider both top flight games. For the unit density and rules complexity, they can play pretty fast. If you're able to clear the ZOC bond hurdle, you might really like these games. (And of course it's perfectly fine if not!)


I'm actually looking forward to playing France '40. My friend has a copy. The only ones I think he doesn't have are Ardennes '44 and The Caucasus Campaign, though I'd like to try those too. I'm certain my replay of Ukraine '43 will be rated higher than initial impressions.
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Mark
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ZOC Bonds are tha shiz...
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Joe Preiser
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Yes. I allow for the fact there is something that I just didn't get.
There have been a couple of times where, after a reread of the rules, something clicked that didn't make sense to me before. A murky procedure may suddenly make sense etc.
Panzer Grenadier comes to mind.
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Fred Thomas
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What are the problems with ZOC bonds in these games? The thinnest possible line in these games has a density of 32-36 km per division, which was not unheard of historically.

I know it looks weird to have big stacks alternating every other hex, but that does compensate for an inherent flaw of the hexagon system: in a frontal attack on a straight line it allows stacks in two or three hexes to converge in an attack on one unit. This just didn't happen in real life. If units at maximum density had converging paths, some of them would be squeezed out of the line.

With ZOC-bonded stacks, those two or three attacking stacks would have to attack two units, which brings us realism in force/force ratio in exchange for some lateral distortion in unit locations. But that doesn't really matter. What matters is force/force ratio, force/space ratio, rate of territorial gain, and rate of casualties.
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Simon
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Ukraine 43 = best east front game..

If i really dislike a game i rarely replay it unless a friend likes it. There are so many games to play that i rarely get around to prioritizing something i was underwhelmed with.
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Sean McCormick
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SeriousCat wrote:

Another series I think I need to give a retry is those based on Bonaparte at Marengo system. My rating of The Guns of Gettysburg was a 1 because in our game the Confederate reinforcements all arrived early, whilst the Union reinforcements all arrived late, leading to a massively ahistorical one-sided battle. However, the odds of that happening twice are extremely low, so perhaps I haven't had the true experience of a 'normal' game.

Another reason why I think replaying 'bad' games is a good idea is because as the player you can attempt to fix them through house rules.

So fellow BoardGameGeeks, do you replay games you've rated low or have thought little of, just to see if your next experience will be different?


With a little bit of experience, that's a situation in GoG that you can potentially recover from, though certainly it's not easy. In any event, the imbalances that can come from the random reinforcement schedule do such a great job of capturing the mindsets of the commanders that the odd early blowout is a price well-worth paying, at least to my mind.
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Grant Linneberg
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seanmac wrote:
SeriousCat wrote:

Another series I think I need to give a retry is those based on Bonaparte at Marengo system. My rating of The Guns of Gettysburg was a 1 because in our game the Confederate reinforcements all arrived early, whilst the Union reinforcements all arrived late, leading to a massively ahistorical one-sided battle. However, the odds of that happening twice are extremely low, so perhaps I haven't had the true experience of a 'normal' game.

Another reason why I think replaying 'bad' games is a good idea is because as the player you can attempt to fix them through house rules.

So fellow BoardGameGeeks, do you replay games you've rated low or have thought little of, just to see if your next experience will be different?


With a little bit of experience, that's a situation in GoG that you can potentially recover from, though certainly it's not easy. In any event, the imbalances that can come from the random reinforcement schedule do such a great job of capturing the mindsets of the commanders that the odd early blowout is a price well-worth paying, at least to my mind.


Plus GoG has that device where the Victory markers can be moved back by the Union player if the rate of Confederate reinforcements is outstripping the Union. That helps even things up by making the rebels come farther.

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Don Lynch
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Do You Replay Games You've Rated Low?

No.
 
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brian hunt
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I actually do not have any games that are a 1, I would probably reserve that for a game that is unplayable. I also try to play games a few times before rating them. Games on my list that are 2's would most likely not get played again unless I had a friend that was "dying" to play that game; except for cards against humanity...i refuse.
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Nick Wade
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I don’t get the problem with ZOC bonds or why you’d vote a game ‘1’ because of them.

As for replaying bad games I’m usually willing to give games that didn’t play well another try if I get the opportunity because sometimes you get the rules wrong or your strategy or execution is hopeless, and none of those things are a reflection of the game.
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Andreas Johansson
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I spent 200 GG and all I got was this lousy overtext!
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I rarely replay something I’ve rated a 4, almost never something lower. Now I seem to be a rather more generous rater than the OP - albeit still considerably harsher than the BGG average.
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Cameron Taylor
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Hattusilis_III wrote:
I don’t get the problem with ZOC bonds or why you’d vote a game ‘1’ because of them.

As for replaying bad games I’m usually willing to give games that didn’t play well another try if I get the opportunity because sometimes you get the rules wrong or your strategy or execution is hopeless, and none of those things are a reflection of the game.


I've reappraised my low rated games after learning to live with ZOC bonds in Holland '44. I expect they'll go even higher with replays. I'm scheduled in for a game of Normandy '44 soon.
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Russ Williams
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SeriousCat wrote:
I've reappraised my low rated games after learning to live with ZOC bonds in Holland '44.

Good; all your (former) 1-ratings on obviously better-than-1 games were making me wonder if smjj had moved from Sweden to New Zealand...
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Jason Cawley
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Games with potential that I’ve rated low become projects.

I mod them into what I think they should be, and then I play that.

I’ve modded Air Force / Dauntless with 30 degree turns to slow down the action and redid combat with “critical hits” to make many bursts more lethal.

I’ve modded Panzer Grenadier hugely to make the platoon level tactical game I’ve wanted since Panzer Blitz, even when it meant ditching huge portions of the original game and streamlining everything.

I’ve modded Terrible Swift Sword and later entrants in GBACW to fix broken artillery and pin rules and change others on withdrawal and the like.

I’ve modded Wellington’s Victory / Ney vs Wellington into what I think a battalion level Napoleonics system should be, with completely redone fire combat and a streamlined sequence of play and new formation rules and especially fixed skirmishers.

I love the Schumpter (sp?) variant of Napoleon’s Last Battles as a great mod in its own right that breathed new life into those classics, but I had to tweak it too, including ditching many of its complex “orders” rules and revising fire combat to reflect density and “lined frontage” constraints, while keeping it brilliant shift to a fire combat table and infantry-cavalry differentiation. I had to tweak its artillery rules some, too, because it was too easy to just “sidestep” fire in it as he originally had them.

I’ve “modded” Simple Great Battles of History to avoid some of the tendency to just move the best formations and ignore the rest, and to keep some of the progressive hits of un simple Great Battles.

I’ve modded the Glory system to be less “defense dominant” and to fix some broken cavalry rules (which let mounted cavalry screens hold of full infantry lines of battle indefinitely by just giving ground at 1 hex a turn).

I’ve modded the great game Battle for Stalingrad to fix some of the supply rules and the tendency of the northeast Russian salient to be left alone and ignored, instead of encircled and destroyed. But honestly this game didn’t need much and I rated it high.

I am working on a mod for the whole Panzergruppe Guderian series to make spearheads somewhat less resilient and attrition more of a thing, along with making ZOCs less fully “sticky” and mech movement phases less huge.

I am in the process of modding the whole SCS series which I really like with a new combat system and unification of rules that the series differentiates pretty strongly by era of design and specifics of each subject.

Games that I rate 8 and 9 I mostly don’t mod, other than point fixes like that mentioned for Battle for Stalingrad above. But almost everything I’ve rated lower, I mod instead of playing “as is”, and games I’ve rated as low as “4” can make good material for mods, and the 5s and 6s are heavily represented among modded games. Especially when I can cover a whole genre that way with a “system” or “sand box” game or games, that will then let me fight whole genres or eras the way I think they should be fought.

Moral - you don’t have to obey the rules. They are some designer and developers sally; you are the judge and can use them any way you see fit.
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Fred Thomas
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Jason - have you detailed your Stumptner NLB and Glory mods somewhere?

Everyone else - here's Jason's SCS mod.
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Jeb
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As a rule I sell games I don’t like. Any game that is a 6 or less is something I sell. Any game that is a 7 or more will see a replay in the right circumstances.
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