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Kokoro: Avenue of the Kodama» Forums » Rules

Subject: Two important rules clarifications - updated rss

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Scott Bender
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The rulebook gets a "D" from me for two VERY fundamental rules points that are not stated.

Most important - Paths drawn TO sanctuaries pass THROUGH sanctuaries and can BRANCH at sanctuaries. Think of the sanctuary squares as representing a "+" path. Which means scores for later sanctuaries can be these giant networks that score considerable points. (Not only is this not explicitly stated in the rule book, none of the examples shown depict this.)


Quote:


Also important - You can pass as often as you like. By calling the action "Look at the next sanctuary card" it implies that once you you've done this (and know what that card is) you can not take it again that round. It would be much better to state that the second available action as "Pass. Skip drawing a line for this card. You may look at the next sanctuary card in the sanctuary deck."

Quote:


Small bonus - Any sanctuary that does not score is -5 points at the end of the game. By commenting specifically on the first scored sanctuary in the rule book they muddy this point.

Edit - I pretty fundamentally misunderstood a key game mechanic that invalidates the first point. Second and third point stand.
 
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Kolja Geldmacher
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
Could you please elaborate how you got these informations?
 
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Scott Bender
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
Flashhawk wrote:
Could you please elaborate how you got these informations?


Both main points confirmed in other threads by Nick Little, developer of the game.
 
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Brodie
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
Not sure what you mean when saying things can branch at sanctuaries. You can still only have one road through a sanctuary.

The passing rule was added in this version, and wasn't in the original Avenue. We ignore the new passing rule and play the old way...it really doesn't make that much of a difference. You can usually find some random tile to dump an unneeded road...but it can still be a little scary some times
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Rob Bell
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
spbtc wrote:
The rulebook gets a "D" from me for two VERY fundamental rules points that are not stated.

Most important - Paths drawn TO sanctuaries pass THROUGH sanctuaries and can BRANCH at sanctuaries. Think of the sanctuary squares as representing a "+" path. Which means scores for later sanctuaries can be these giant networks that score considerable points. (Not only is this not explicitly stated in the rule book, none of the examples shown depict this.)

Also important - You can pass as often as you like. By calling the action "Look at the next sanctuary card" it implies that once you you've done this (and know what that card is) you can not take it again that round. It would be much better to state that the second available action as "Pass. Skip drawing a line for this card. You may look at the next sanctuary card in the sanctuary deck."

Small bonus - Any sanctuary that does not score is -5 points at the end of the game. By commenting specifically on the first scored sanctuary in the rule book they muddy this point.



spbtc wrote:
Flashhawk wrote:
Could you please elaborate how you got these informations?


Both main points confirmed in other threads by Nick Little, developer of the game.


Links or it didn't happen.

Seriously though, I've looked at every thread in the Kokoro forum and you are the only one I see stating that sanctuaries should be treated like a "+". Is this the "confirmation" you are referring to?

nicklittle wrote:
SaltyHorse wrote:
Yes. You can even have the path at the end of the game be one giant loop that connects to every sanctuary.

There's no distinction between new paths/sanctuaries, or those that were previously used for scoring.
When scoring a sanctuary/guardian, you simply look follow the single path that connects to it, and count the elements it touches.


This is correct.


If this is the designer confirmation you are referring to, I don't know how you are interpreting it as though sanctuaries function as a "+". It just states that sanctuaries can be connected across later rounds by connecting previously drawn paths.
Nowhere in this post (or the Kokoro forums) is it mentioned that paths can cross each other thru sanctuaries. In fact, SalthyHorse specifically mentions that you follow the "single path". If sanctuaries could branch, then there would no longer be a "single path".
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Randy Espinoza
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
In the original Avenue it is explicitly stated that the “looking at the next card” action can only be taken once per round. I would be surprised if this rule was relaxed in this version, it seems to me that it would make decisions less risky and hurt the gameplay.

Regarding the sanctuaries, I believe it is clear from the rulebook that paths go “through” them. The branching out part I’m not sure I understand. If you mean that other paths can intersect there then I don’t think that’s true.
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Rob Bell
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
Espinoza wrote:
Regarding the sanctuaries, I believe it is clear from the rulebook that paths go “through” them.
It is absolutely clear; One of the paths shown in the example does exactly that!

Espinoza wrote:
The branching out part I’m not sure I understand. If you mean that other paths can intersect there then I don’t think that’s true.
It's not.
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A Huynh
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
Man if you post a thread about rules clarifications, you would think that the OP would get the rule right. Since you've made this thread so important as a put **READ FIRST** in the title, I think you should correct your "clarification". The sanctuaries DO NOT act as intersections (+).
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Brodie
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
Espinoza wrote:
In the original Avenue it is explicitly stated that the “looking at the next card” action can only be taken once per round. I would be surprised if this rule was relaxed in this version, it seems to me that it would make decisions less risky and hurt the gameplay.

This rule was actually relaxed in this version of the game. I did see that thread from the publisher last week (Re: Passing your turn?)...so at least the OP got one thing right

I totally agree with you though, I think it takes away from the game...so like I said in my earlier post, we play with the old version (only looking once)...it makes the game more risky and fun.
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Scott Bender
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
Espinoza wrote:

Regarding the sanctuaries, I believe it is clear from the rulebook that paths go “through” them. The branching out part I’m not sure I understand. If you mean that other paths can intersect there then I don’t think that’s true.


Again, the rules are unhelpful on this point. There is nothing in the rules that state multiple paths can not converge/diverge from a sanctuary square. Under scoring it says you are to "count all the features connected by a path, in both directions, to this sanctuary." "a path" is rather ambiguous, as it can either be interpreted as "any path" or "one single path." Then turning to scoring to the guardians, you can score for "each [feature] connected" to the appropriate guardian. This would certainly suggest that any feature on any continuous line to a guardian can be scored. I suppose there could be two different "scoring line conditions" as sanctuaries and guardians are different, but it's not clear from the rules. So, I would argue the guardian scoring clearly allows for branching paths, so the sanctuary scoring does too. Q.E.D.
 
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Rob Bell
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
spbtc wrote:
Again, the rules are unhelpful on this point. There is nothing in the rules that state multiple paths can not converge/diverge from a sanctuary square.

You can only draw one path on any square and it must be one of the 6 paths shown on the cards. A sanctuary only scores if a path actually goes THRU its square; sanctuaries don't score from paths drawn on squares adjacent to them that don't actually connect THRU the sanctuary. Since none of the paths you are able to draw are intersections (there is no "+" card in the deck), then multiple paths can never converge/diverge from a sanctuary square (or any square).

Some Decree cards can possibly break these rules, of course, but this thread isn't about Decree cards.
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James
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
spbtc wrote:
The rulebook gets a "D" from me for two VERY fundamental rules points that are not stated.

Most important - Paths drawn TO sanctuaries pass THROUGH sanctuaries and can BRANCH at sanctuaries. Think of the sanctuary squares as representing a "+" path. Which means scores for later sanctuaries can be these giant networks that score considerable points. (Not only is this not explicitly stated in the rule book, none of the examples shown depict this.)

Quote:




The thread you linked to does not support the conclusion you've come to.

You must draw a line ON THE SANCTUARY. It does not count as a plus, and cannot be crossed through by other paths. You have misinterpreted a designer's comment and come to a ridiculous conclusion that is wrong.





spbtc wrote:

Again, the rules are unhelpful on this point.


The rules are 100% helpful. What is unhelpful is starting a thread angrily shouting about rules mistakes based on an incorrect conclusion drawn from a lack of reading comprehension.

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Randy Espinoza
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
spbtc wrote:
Again, the rules are unhelpful on this point. There is nothing in the rules that state multiple paths can not converge/diverge from a sanctuary square.
The rules DO state
Quote:
You must draw the path segment in a space on your sheet that does not already have a path drawn on it.

No ambiguity here. Sanctuaries and guardians are spaces on your sheet, they are no special in anyway to break this rule.

spbtc wrote:
Under scoring it says you are to "count all the features connected by a path, in both directions, to this sanctuary." "a path" is rather ambiguous, as it can either be interpreted as "any path" or "one single path."
There is only ONE path that passes through each sanctuary. There is no ambiguity here: look at the sanctuary, look at the UNIQUE continuous path passing through it, count all features along it.
spbtc wrote:
Then turning to scoring to the guardians, you can score for "each [feature] connected" to the appropriate guardian. This would certainly suggest that any feature on any continuous line to a guardian can be scored.
This is correct. But there’s also only one path passing through a guardian, and then as for sanctuaries, there’s no ambiguity: look at each guardian, follow the UNIQUE path through it and score the corresponding features.
spbtc wrote:
I suppose there could be two different "scoring line conditions" as sanctuaries and guardians are different, but it's not clear from the rules. So, I would argue the guardian scoring clearly allows for branching paths, so the sanctuary scoring does too. Q.E.D.

It is the same scoring in both cases.

The confusion seems to arise from the believe that the guardians need only “paths” leading to them (there’s no drawing in the rulebook with paths involving guardians) which would mean there could be several, but in reality, both sanctuaries and guardians require paths going THROUGH them, those are then unique single paths that are later scored.
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Scott Bender
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
eviljelloman wrote:

You must draw a line ON THE SANCTUARY. It does not count as a plus, and cannot be crossed through by other paths. You have misinterpreted a designer's comment and come to a ridiculous conclusion that is wrong.






Oh cusswords. For some reason I approached this game with the assumption that I just to get the path up to the box with a sanctuary. I will still maintain that the rules are deficient for not clearly stating in text that you have to draw a path through a sanctuary. But the picture does clearly show that to be the case. I'm not sure I've ever come across a situation where the only place a rule is "stated" is in the graphics.

 
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James
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Re: **READ FIRST** Two important rules clarifications
So maybe go edit all of the posts you've made incorrectly describing the rules before you mislead anybody else?
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Ethan Yanyo
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spbtc wrote:
eviljelloman wrote:

You must draw a line ON THE SANCTUARY. It does not count as a plus, and cannot be crossed through by other paths. You have misinterpreted a designer's comment and come to a ridiculous conclusion that is wrong.






Oh cusswords. For some reason I approached this game with the assumption that I just to get the path up to the box with a sanctuary. I will still maintain that the rules are deficient for not clearly stating in text that you have to draw a path through a sanctuary. But the picture does clearly show that to be the case. I'm not sure I've ever come across a situation where the only place a rule is "stated" is in the graphics.



The rules do say:

Quote:
For a sanctuary, feature, or guardian to be considered connected, a path must have been drawn in its space. A path leading to the edge of the space is not enough.


Seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me.
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