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Lock 'n Load Tactical: Heroes of Normandy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Simple LOS question for version 4.1+ rss

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Blair Brewer
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I would like to find out the latest rules on these. I thought i had my los issues figured out and watched a video last night where they broke what i was thinking.

In the scenario in the image, the two lines I4-J2 and E3-G5 to me were blocked and degrated being the line went through those hexes. But in the video i saw, the one didn't block his view being the line from center to center didn't touch the building i guess. So my question is does it block when you pass through any part of the hex?? like i thought? or does it have to hit building to block? And if that is the answer, then what up with the 2nd example and degrading terraing, would it have to hit a tree to be degrading????

Thanks.
 
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Stéphane Tanguay
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Since the first editions of LNL, LOS has to touch the symbols to be affected. Thus in your examples, all LOS are clear.

In v 4.1 (current version), a precision was made for LOS traced along hexside:

When tracing LOS down hexsides, the adjacent hex terrain is considered whole-hex.

In v 4.2 (beta version), this is somewhat rescinded, at least for buildings:

With the exception of Smoke and other terrains specified in the TEC as degrading LOS along hexside, when tracing LOS down hexsides without intervening blocking/degrading silhouettes, consider the adjacent hex terrain as whole-hex (exception: buildings, bamboo hut and terrains specified in the TEC as not degrading LOS down the edge of hex, such as wreck.
 
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Blair Brewer
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Great. That does make it clear. And makes sense as well.

As for down hexsides, i understood it to mean that if you are viewing completely down a hex line that it is clear. So i may have that one understood. I think. In my image, would F2 to E3 be clear LOS? If it is clear, then i do follow the logic there.

Thanks

 
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Norman Smith
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BlairB007 wrote:
Great. That does make it clear. And makes sense as well.

As for down hexsides, i understood it to mean that if you are viewing completely down a hex line that it is clear. So i may have that one understood. I think. In my image, would F2 to E3 be clear LOS? If it is clear, then i do follow the logic there.

Thanks



It is not so straight forward as that unfortunately. Under rule version 4.1 your example is exactly right, the wall that lays between F2 and E3 does NOT block LOS - neither would it block if it were a hedge instead.

HOWEVER, the hex F3 is all important here, because at the moment it is open. Regardless of what is going on with that wall, if F3 were a light woods, like the hex on the other side of the wall, then vision would be degraded, even though that LOS would not actually touch any tree structure, because if LOS travels down hexsides, the two hexsides to either side of the hexside ( the wall in this case) count as filling the entire hex. So two blocking hexes block, two degrading hexes degrade and one blocking and one degrading hex just degrade ..... regardless of the fact that the actual line of sight does not cross a terrain symbolor tht there is a wall there.

So the basic principle is that LOS needs to pass through a terrain symbol to be affected EXCEPT when travelling down a hexside .. in which case the two adjacent hexes are FILLED with the terrain feature, not just their outlines ..... so you cannot fire EXACTLY down a hexside between buildings. This is as per 4.1. which are the current official set. There are some BETA rules that loosen some of this up, but at present 4.1 is official.

 
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Blair Brewer
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I think i now understand LOS. Thanks guys. At least until they change it again.
 
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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normsmith wrote:
BlairB007 wrote:
Great. That does make it clear. And makes sense as well.

As for down hexsides, i understood it to mean that if you are viewing completely down a hex line that it is clear. So i may have that one understood. I think. In my image, would F2 to E3 be clear LOS? If it is clear, then i do follow the logic there.

Thanks



It is not so straight forward as that unfortunately. Under rule version 4.1 your example is exactly right, the wall that lays between F2 and E3 does NOT block LOS - neither would it block if it were a hedge instead.

HOWEVER, the hex F3 is all important here, because at the moment it is open. Regardless of what is going on with that wall, if F3 were a light woods, like the hex on the other side of the wall, then vision would be degraded, even though that LOS would not actually touch any tree structure, because if LOS travels down hexsides, the two hexsides to either side of the hexside ( the wall in this case) count as filling the entire hex. So two blocking hexes block, two degrading hexes degrade and one blocking and one degrading hex just degrade ..... regardless of the fact that the actual line of sight does not cross a terrain symbolor tht there is a wall there.

So the basic principle is that LOS needs to pass through a terrain symbol to be affected EXCEPT when travelling down a hexside .. in which case the two adjacent hexes are FILLED with the terrain feature, not just their outlines ..... so you cannot fire EXACTLY down a hexside between buildings. This is as per 4.1. which are the current official set. There are some BETA rules that loosen some of this up, but at present 4.1 is official.



This is the must unclear and unintuitive LOS rule ever. It's correct of course, but very confusing and gamey.

Just make the terrain image count and be done with it.
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Blair Brewer
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Ok. Thought i had it. Once last question.

When a hex has a side that is hedges (bocage is hedges in this scenario).

When i spot, being the hex D5 is open, do i auto spot it even though the hex has a hedge along the front of it. (figure E1 is trying to spot)
When i fire at it, is there any penalties.

In short.
So would E1 auto spot D5?
and would E1 firing at D5 have any TM modifiers to implement?

Thanks again for the help. But this LOS is confusing me. Getting all the other rules with no issues. which is good being i dove in with buying Normandy, Pacific, Red Star, Nam and Solo mods. So not really a choice for me anymore, I will learn the system.

 
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Norman Smith
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Both units are on the same level

Hedges block LOS but not if they form the hexside of the unit concerned, so if the medic was one hex further back, the hedge would block.

so the medic is spotted

when fired upon his terrain modifier is zero, but if he was under a movement marker, the hedge would cancel the movement bonus that the firer would otherwise get.
 
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Blair Brewer
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thanks for info. So if no movement and my guy spots him and fires. Does he get any tm for the hedges or is it my fp vs his 0.
 
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Ty Snouffer
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klkitchens wrote:
This is the must unclear and unintuitive LOS rule ever. It's correct of course, but very confusing and gamey.

Just make the terrain image count and be done with it.


I'm not sure I would go that far but it does create some strange situations.

I think they could achieve the effect they want with the rules as written if the maps were drawn to scale. Instead, there is often a single giant building in a 50m hex rather than a few smaller ones. One of those could be placed on the spine between hexes. Blocked.
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Norman Smith
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BlairB007 wrote:
thanks for info. So if no movement and my guy spots him and fires. Does he get any tm for the hedges or is it my fp vs his 0.


no protection, the TEM is zero.
 
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Blair Brewer
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Great. Thanks.
 
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Stéphane Tanguay
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BlairB007 wrote:
In my image, would F2 to E3 be clear LOS?

Beside everything Norm said, you also have to look at the TEC (in this case under Wall). The Wall hexside here directly connect the firing and the target hexes. if this was not the case, LOS would have been blocked.

 
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Stéphane Tanguay
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klkitchens wrote:

This is the must unclear and unintuitive LOS rule ever. It's correct of course, but very confusing and gamey.

Just make the terrain image count and be done with it.


That is why a new rule version is proposed under 4.2. It also correct one problem with some maps of LNL where, because the tree symbols are so neatly aligned that you were able to fire along most hexside between two forest hexes
 
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Stéphane Tanguay
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normsmith wrote:
so the medic is spotted


Note that if the bocage hexside was not considered hedge in this scenario, it would require a spotting roll, as if the medic was standing in blocking terrain, to spot it
 
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Stéphane Tanguay
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tsnouffer wrote:
I think they could achieve the effect they want with the rules as written if the maps were drawn to scale. Instead, there is often a single giant building in a 50m hex rather than a few smaller ones. One of those could be placed on the spine between hexes. Blocked.


The official reason the LOS down hexside precision was put in 4.1 was the fear that people would want to move between buildings if they were allowed to fire along the hexside. As i mentionned, it did have the collateral advantage to take care of the neatly aligned forest hexes in russian maps.

I think you either have to go with the "terrain fill the hex" approach at all time or the "LOS has to touch symbol" approach at all time, just to be consistent. The latter does require that the maps to be drawn in a more "natural" way so that symbols do cross the hexside more often than not.

The proposed rule in 4.2 is an attempt to get back to the "LOS has to touch symbol" approach at all time, while accounting for some maps drawn in plantation-like style :-)
 
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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stanguay wrote:
klkitchens wrote:

This is the must unclear and unintuitive LOS rule ever. It's correct of course, but very confusing and gamey.

Just make the terrain image count and be done with it.


That is why a new rule version is proposed under 4.2. It also correct one problem with some maps of LNL where, because the tree symbols are so neatly aligned that you were able to fire along most hexside between two forest hexes




My mousewriting is blocky, but...
Red is blocked.
Green is not blocked.

Both pass through the gap between buildings without touching the building (a true straight line anyway)...

One has LOS, the other does not.

Seems gamey that for the red shot the building INFLATES to fill the whole hex.


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John Brady
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Kevin, I agree with you...I've always used the original LOS rules where it has to touch the artwork. I didn't see any reason to change it. MUCH easier, and you don't end up with the kind of weird stuff you're illustrating.
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Vance Strickland
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I also have always played that the LoS line must touch the art to be affected.

So use a very fine thread for LoS checking! devil
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Ty Snouffer
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Barthheart wrote:
I also have always played that the LoS line must touch the art to be affected.

So use a very fine thread for LoS checking! devil


That is one thing that bugs me. I can suspend disbelief, say it is "just a game," and play the rules as written . . . what I don't like is thinking about having to figure dot-to-dot LOS on the physical game as published.

Sure, it is easy on VASSAL, but on the in-box maps for ftf play? Better have a good gaming buddy to help you roll with the ambiguity.
 
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Stéphane Tanguay
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klkitchens wrote:



My mousewriting is blocky, but...
Red is blocked.
Green is not blocked.

Both pass through the gap between buildings without touching the building (a true straight line anyway)...

One has LOS, the other does not.

Seems gamey that for the red shot the building INFLATES to fill the whole hex.


I agree, thus the reason I proposed the new (beta) LOS rules version under 4.2
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Ty Snouffer
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Did anyone think about going the other direction? Meaning that rather than down the spine is open, and/or touching the silhouette is blocked, make it so that when hexes each with blocking terrain meet all is blocked not just down the spine).

That solves the issue above as well along with countering the "they'll want to move down the spine" argument.
 
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Stéphane Tanguay
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Yes, it was considered. It would be a radical change from the standard LNL rules and would render obsolete some terrain distinctive impact on LOS. It was also feared it would change scenario balances.

It sure would make things easier :-)
 
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