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Subject: UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Variant rss

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Derek Funkhouser
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Having played Fallout 6+ times now, twice at player counts 2, 3, and 4, I've started testing a few slight "house rules" to clean up the mess that is agenda cards. They're really the only main issue I have with the game at this point, but because the entire game hinges on them, it's a big issue. So, without further ado, I present to you, my variant! It's actually very simple.
My official, unofficial errata to the game, to make it AMAZING is:

Whenenever a player would draw an agenda card, they draw 2, choose and keep 1. Discard the other agenda card to the bottom of the deck.

(If you simply remove the other from the game, you would run out of cards to activate the NPC enemies).

We played this once last night, with 2 new players and 2 experienced players. It worked so well that we decided to share with you! The final scores were 8,7,7,6 with one of the new players winning! It takes the game from a 7 to a 9 in my opinion.

If you have any questions or suggestions, let me know! Remember, PLAY ALL THE THINGS!
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Tim Maynard
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Re: Officially UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
Thank you! This is a great idea.
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Aaron Day
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Re: Officially UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
My concern with this method is that players would just stack Agenda cards for the same faction.
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Jan Probst
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Re: Officially UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
Hedgehobbit wrote:
My concern with this method is that players would just stack Agenda cards for the same faction.

Stacking agenda cards for the same faction is how the game is played and won.
This variant just offers another method to do that than "gain more agenda cards, hope harder".
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RIK FONTANA
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Re: Officially UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
Excellent Derek!

My hope is that Fantasy Flight is also carefully reading the Forums and considering the Posts.....
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Christopher Grace
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Re: Officially UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
Weltenreiter wrote:
Hedgehobbit wrote:
My concern with this method is that players would just stack Agenda cards for the same faction.

Stacking agenda cards for the same faction is how the game is played and won.
This variant just offers another method to do that than "gain more agenda cards, hope harder".


But you're not shifting any control of this randomness at all. Where on one hand you give people the ability to draw two and choose one, making it easier to get the cards they desire (presumably to balance randomness and provide a come-from-behind mechanic)... you also give the leaders a way to remove more desirable agenda cards from the top of the deck, effectively increasing their own odds of *ahem* railroading a faction.

EDIT TO ADD: that misleading title is really frustrating.
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Randall Monk
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Re: Officially UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
Yeah, the title is misleading. There is no hint of officialdom in your variant.
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Derek Funkhouser
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Re: UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
Title has been edited. I see no one here has any humor.

Also, if you think this variant doesn't decrease the randomness, you should play it first.



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Christopher Grace
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Re: UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
DrFunk27 wrote:
Title has been edited. I see no one here has any humor.

Also, if you think this variant doesn't decrease the randomness, you should play it first.





that's not how math works. As they say, "the plural of anecdote is not data."
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Den Ell

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Re: UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
One supposes that the designers made the game the way they did for play-balance. Most of the time the design is such that player(s) have only about a 33% chance to win. Once you increase that chance, which is what this variant does, then it only increases the chance to "beat the Game".

I guess what I hear the most is people not liking the Agenda cards, and naturally so, because if you can't control the flow of how those agenda cards are presented, then you have less chance to win... I guess I'm not surprised that someone has came up with a way to circumvent those all important Agenda cards.

Now before someone goes off on me; no I'm not exactly in favor of them either, however, one has to experiment like this for them to know how to design a "Board" game like this. Something was needed to control victory, and those Agenda Cards is what the game designer(s) came up with. The question is to all those who are saying Trash or modify them; and that is: Exactly what would you replace it with that would be thematic and not bog the game down in a massive re-design? To me, this variant here, draw 2 keep 1, it doesn't do it. It will be easier, a lot easier, and once it's to easy, Fallout will be another one of your shelf games, pretty to look at, but not to play.
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Jesse Stratton
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Re: UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
Denell wrote:
One supposes that the designers made the game the way they did for play-balance. Most of the time the design is such that player(s) have only about a 33% chance to win. Once you increase that chance, which is what this variant does, then it only increases the chance to "beat the Game".

I guess what I hear the most is people not liking the Agenda cards, and naturally so, because if you can't control the flow of how those agenda cards are presented, then you have less chance to win... I guess I'm not surprised that someone has came up with a way to circumvent those all important Agenda cards.

Now before someone goes off on me; no I'm not exactly in favor of them either, however, one has to experiment like this for them to know how to design a "Board" game like this. Something was needed to control victory, and those Agenda Cards is what the game designer(s) came up with. The question is to all those who are saying Trash or modify them; and that is: Exactly what would you replace it with that would be thematic and not bog the game down in a massive re-design? To me, this variant here, draw 2 keep 1, it doesn't do it. It will be easier, a lot easier, and once it's to easy, Fallout will be another one of your shelf games, pretty to look at, but not to play.


Fallout is a competitive game. The point isn't to beat the game as a group it's to beat the game and other players at the table. To that end, if the game wins less and a player wins more why is that a bad thing?
 
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Christopher Grace
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Re: UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
Team D20 wrote:
krztoff wrote:
DrFunk27 wrote:
Title has been edited. I see no one here has any humor.

Also, if you think this variant doesn't decrease the randomness, you should play it first.





that's not how math works. As they say, "the plural of anecdote is not data."
I think you are looking at the wrong math. If each player gets to look at Yx2 cards and select Y, then they will find better options within the variableness of the current game progress than if they are simply given Y cards randomly without choice.


Correct. But this choice is given to not only those needing to catch up, but those in the lead. And those in the lead can use this same mechanic to stymie the other players. It's a wash.

If playing this way makes the game more fun, that's great. You should do so. Just don't sell it as a fix for broken mechanisms in the game.
 
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Christopher Grace
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Re: UNOFFICIAL Agenda Card Fix
Team D20 wrote:
krztoff wrote:
Team D20 wrote:
krztoff wrote:
DrFunk27 wrote:
Title has been edited. I see no one here has any humor.

Also, if you think this variant doesn't decrease the randomness, you should play it first.





that's not how math works. As they say, "the plural of anecdote is not data."
I think you are looking at the wrong math. If each player gets to look at Yx2 cards and select Y, then they will find better options within the variableness of the current game progress than if they are simply given Y cards randomly without choice.


Correct. But this choice is given to not only those needing to catch up, but those in the lead. And those in the lead can use this same mechanic to stymie the other players. It's a wash.

If playing this way makes the game more fun, that's great. You should do so. Just don't sell it as a fix for broken mechanisms in the game.
But if one player is clearly in the lead, then all other players can use it to stymie that leader, which in theory effectively helps tether the leader from running away with the game.



You make a good point, just not the way you think. One of the biggest complaints is in how multiple people working toward the same faction can make it so people in the opposing faction can’t catch up. This suggested change would compound that problem as these teams would still draw more agenda cards and have even more control over the contents of that deck
 
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Derek Funkhouser
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krztoff wrote:
Team D20 wrote:
krztoff wrote:
Team D20 wrote:
krztoff wrote:
DrFunk27 wrote:
Title has been edited. I see no one here has any humor.

Also, if you think this variant doesn't decrease the randomness, you should play it first.





that's not how math works. As they say, "the plural of anecdote is not data."
I think you are looking at the wrong math. If each player gets to look at Yx2 cards and select Y, then they will find better options within the variableness of the current game progress than if they are simply given Y cards randomly without choice.


Correct. But this choice is given to not only those needing to catch up, but those in the lead. And those in the lead can use this same mechanic to stymie the other players. It's a wash.

If playing this way makes the game more fun, that's great. You should do so. Just don't sell it as a fix for broken mechanisms in the game.
But if one player is clearly in the lead, then all other players can use it to stymie that leader, which in theory effectively helps tether the leader from running away with the game.



You make a good point, just not the way you think. One of the biggest complaints is in how multiple people working toward the same faction can make it so people in the opposing faction can’t catch up. This suggested change would compound that problem as these teams would still draw more agenda cards and have even more control over the contents of that deck


You are correct. I never said this fixes the runaway leader issue. What it DOES is give players more control over what they do or do not choose as their agenda AND removes about 45 min from the game. In our 3-4 player sessions, the game was taking over 2 hours, which I felt was unnecessarily sluggish. When we added this variant, it kept the game moving at a better pace and the scores were still close. Granted, this was one test, so I will of course play with this variant more but I felt it was worth sharing with everyone.
 
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David Umstattd
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Strattjw wrote:
Denell wrote:
One supposes that the designers made the game the way they did for play-balance. Most of the time the design is such that player(s) have only about a 33% chance to win. Once you increase that chance, which is what this variant does, then it only increases the chance to "beat the Game".

I guess what I hear the most is people not liking the Agenda cards, and naturally so, because if you can't control the flow of how those agenda cards are presented, then you have less chance to win... I guess I'm not surprised that someone has came up with a way to circumvent those all important Agenda cards.

Now before someone goes off on me; no I'm not exactly in favor of them either, however, one has to experiment like this for them to know how to design a "Board" game like this. Something was needed to control victory, and those Agenda Cards is what the game designer(s) came up with. The question is to all those who are saying Trash or modify them; and that is: Exactly what would you replace it with that would be thematic and not bog the game down in a massive re-design? To me, this variant here, draw 2 keep 1, it doesn't do it. It will be easier, a lot easier, and once it's to easy, Fallout will be another one of your shelf games, pretty to look at, but not to play.


Fallout is a competitive game. The point isn't to beat the game as a group it's to beat the game and other players at the table. To that end, if the game wins less and a player wins more why is that a bad thing?


You’re kinda incorrect here. The opponent primarily is the game. The other players can win along side you. So you’re not really trying to beat them.
 
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Corban Caldwell
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David Umstattd wrote:
Strattjw wrote:
Denell wrote:
One supposes that the designers made the game the way they did for play-balance. Most of the time the design is such that player(s) have only about a 33% chance to win. Once you increase that chance, which is what this variant does, then it only increases the chance to "beat the Game".

I guess what I hear the most is people not liking the Agenda cards, and naturally so, because if you can't control the flow of how those agenda cards are presented, then you have less chance to win... I guess I'm not surprised that someone has came up with a way to circumvent those all important Agenda cards.

Now before someone goes off on me; no I'm not exactly in favor of them either, however, one has to experiment like this for them to know how to design a "Board" game like this. Something was needed to control victory, and those Agenda Cards is what the game designer(s) came up with. The question is to all those who are saying Trash or modify them; and that is: Exactly what would you replace it with that would be thematic and not bog the game down in a massive re-design? To me, this variant here, draw 2 keep 1, it doesn't do it. It will be easier, a lot easier, and once it's to easy, Fallout will be another one of your shelf games, pretty to look at, but not to play.


Fallout is a competitive game. The point isn't to beat the game as a group it's to beat the game and other players at the table. To that end, if the game wins less and a player wins more why is that a bad thing?


You’re kinda incorrect here. The opponent primarily is the game. The other players can win along side you. So you’re not really trying to beat them.


Thats a subjective arguement. Its entirely dependant on wether youre a competitive or cooperative person. The game being priority sure but other players can drive the game against you by going for the other faction.
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Joel Bartenbach
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krztoff wrote:
Weltenreiter wrote:
Hedgehobbit wrote:
My concern with this method is that players would just stack Agenda cards for the same faction.

Stacking agenda cards for the same faction is how the game is played and won.
This variant just offers another method to do that than "gain more agenda cards, hope harder".


But you're not shifting any control of this randomness at all. Where on one hand you give people the ability to draw two and choose one, making it easier to get the cards they desire (presumably to balance randomness and provide a come-from-behind mechanic)... you also give the leaders a way to remove more desirable agenda cards from the top of the deck, effectively increasing their own odds of *ahem* railroading a faction.

EDIT TO ADD: that misleading title is really frustrating.


To fix that problem, rather than put the discarded agenda card on the bottom of the deck simply shuffle it back in. I personally like this variant. While it isn't perfect it's a simple fix for a rather awkward scoring system where there is probably no perfect solution in the base game.
 
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