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Subject: List O' Rules Questions/Issues rss

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D. Patton
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I took the list from one that was already shared over on dakkadakka from another site. I really want to like and support Newcromunda and I think GW have done a much better job with games the past two years or so. But Necromunda and to a lesser extent Blood Bowl could have been handled in a more community friendly way. The poor editing and spreading of what have been core rules in previous editions into multiple supplements is getting to be annoying.

And now, on with a cut and paste of the list of rules questions from people who've done more diving than I've made time for:

- The skill Mighty Leap is really unclear on what it does, either it allows you to make Leaps, and no one else can without the skill, or it lets you make longer leaps in some way that isn't specified. Please clarify.
- The Toxin rule is awful, currently the rules state that you make the Toughness Test instead of an Injury Roll, but if it fails it does nothing. It's mathematically worse than just hitting someone with a regular Knife, because with that you have 4/6 chance to take them out (with a following coup de grace) and 2/6 chance of flesh-wounding. This CRIPPLES house Escher, makes their weaker weapons more expensive, and really limits their weapon choices overall. Surely this isn't intentional!?
- What do Scare Gas Grenades do? Where are the rules for them? What does the Fear trait do?
- The stray shot mechanic currently allows fighters to bend bullets around cover, and get a better hitrate. If an enemy fighter is in full cover a Juve hits on 7+, but if he shoots at someone in partial cover behind them (on a 6+) and misses he then hits the original target with a stray shot on a 4+. Real potential for abuse here.
- Does the Charge action require line-of-sight?
- Do Juves ever get armour? There is no ruling on gaining armour in the downtime rules, and it can't be purchased at the trading post.
- Club/Hammer/Maul and Stub cannon statlines are absent from the Gang War Book, despite being available at the Trading Post and Goliath Armoury respectively. What are the Stats?
- The Underhive Armoury in the Gang War book includes a statline for a Sawn-Off Shotgun, but there is no way of purchasing one.
- There are a lot of useful weapons in the Legacy PDF, but they do not have rarities assigned to them so can't be merged into the Trading Post.
- Goliath Juves have access to Agility as a secondary skill pick, but not Combat like the rest of the gang.
- Escher Lasguns are 5 points, Las Pistols are 15 points.
- Juves require 6 advancements to match the stats of a ganger, which even when you take into account the 10xp for +1 M and +1 I puts them 34xp behind a Ganger. They are never going to be worth the 30 credits you save by hiring one instead of a Ganger.
- Juve maximum stats cap much lower than a normal fighter of any other type, in long term campaigns it makes them redundant.
- When Charging does moving within 1” automatically pull you into combat or does your total move need to get you into base to base? If the latter what happens when you move within 1” (as allowed in the rule for charging) but not base to base? Do you stop 1” away or do you stop the full move distance.
- Can a Ganger equip a Special Weapon without being a specialist? A Grenade Launcher purchased from the trading post? A Chem Thrower in the Gang's Stash?
- Is a ganger who is equipped with a weapon from the special weapons list during gang creation counted as a Specialist? Can you equip another Ganger with a Special Weapon if the one from gang creation dies?
- Can Escher fighters equip Goliath weapons and vice versa? They can acquire each other's equipment via an exchange for a captured fighter. Nothing in the rules prevents this.
- When Specialists become Champions do their stats change? We went over juves, there is a specific paragraph for them. The xp purchase for gangers to become champions just says they are promoted to champions and gain a skill. What does that mean exactly?
- When you hire a Champion their stat caps for Wounds and Attacks is 3. Juves and Gangers who become Champions through promotion have a cap of 2 for those same stats, meaning a Promoted Champion is inferior to one that is hired.
- Currently there are no modifiers for shooting blast weapons at fighters in cover, since cover is based on the model, and blast weapons don't target them. Is this on purpose?
- Since blast and template weapons don't target fighters, they can make attacks against fighters that are Hidden. Is this on purpose?
- Will, Int and LD are currently only used for a few skills and niche actions. Will there be more uses for these stats in the future?
- Can the True Grit skill negate an injury roll caused by a Stimm-Slug stash?
- Can Gangers use weapon attachments? Can juves use special ammunition? Rules say Gangers may use wargear, but weapon attachments are in a seperate list from "wargear". Juves should be able to use dum dum bullets, but the rules as written, they cannot. Same with wargear, they can't have them.
- Is there an error in the Ganger Advancement table? The Gang Value increase for WS/BS and WP/Int seems to be the opposite of the Champion/Leader/Juve table. The Ganger Advancement table seems to be the error, where WS/BS and WP/Int positions have been swapped.
- Do Gravchutes cause fall damage on enemies or allies you land on?
- The Entangle weapon trait from the gangs of legend PDF has no explanation of what it does.
- The 'Humiliated' Injury result says it decreases Leadership and Cool by 1 - is this intentional? The Leadership decrease is fine as debuff, but decreasing Cool seems like a buff (should it be -1 Leadership and +1 Cool).
- In a Sector Mechanicus game it says to place Loot Caskets (p21), but then the only reference I could find to what Loot Caskets do was in the Looters Scenario? Is this how the "regular" Loot Caskets work? Ie D3x10 credits if you are in possession? Do you have to get the casket off the board like you do in the Looters Scenario to be in possession, or is simply holding the casket enough?

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Mark
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Thanks for posting!

With the assurance that while not perfect, the game is entirely playable, I have two more issues:

-Goliath's have a better Strength, Toughness, and Armor than Eschers, but don't cost much more. Cost even less more in Gang War.
-Goliath's Cool stats are, um, ridiculous. Cool is the most important psychology stat. The G's Leader is a best in show "4+". ALL other G's have a "5+." So a Goliath Juve has a better Cool than an Escher Leader! This is repeated in both rulebooks and the pre-generated ganger character cards. Grrr.
-Goliath Rivet canon and Grenade Launcher are half price in Gang War compared to the basic rulebook. Two Grenade Launchers cost less than one Chem-Thrower, (which, in comparison, is a remarkably inferior weapon). Grrr x 2.

Not saying Goliath's are unbeatable. I've lost to them three times, but managed to lose with them one time. Which probably says more about me than them.
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Oak Wolf
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I have to agree with the feeling that Goliaths don't pay enough for their stats, and some might even be typos in the first place.

Goliath get a hidden rebate on the best stats in the game (Toughness, Cool). Escher, with their ridiculous Cool stat, are cowards...which doesn't fit one bit for them. I'd have seen Delaque have that kind of stat...but Escher? I've read around that Escher are supposed to be numerous...well, currently Goliaths will have bout the same numbers. This becomes even worse after a campaign has started, as Escher will try to pay for those vital stats...and guess what, they are more expensive in XP, and also bloat the team's value much more (Touhness is +30 value)...meaning that they are the ones who will be outnumbered.

Escher chem thrower shouldn't cost more than a grenade launcher, especially in a campaign setting as its effectiveness will decrease over time (as other gangs get respirators)...currently a Goliath can buy 2 grenade launchers and have left over credits for the price of the chem throwers. This is completely wrong. The "counter-counter" equipment, Chem-synth, is so badly written that it might just not exist, as it forces the user to waste an action to prep the shot. If engaged, it's even worse as Escher have the worst Cool stat possible.

The proof-reading of that book is beyond repair...it's like it's been done by some 20 year old students who didn't read their work twice, and tested it maybe 2-3 games.


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Mark
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Dammit! When I was a 20 year-old student, I always read my work twice. When I was sober.whistle

Methinks this stems from the dreaded Deadline-itis.

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D. Patton
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I really want this edition to succeed. It helps our FLGS and gives everyone in our local player base access to a common rule set. Just kind of annoyed at this drip-feed coupled with such an obvious failure to coordinate the stuff available on day one (core game, Gang War 1 and Legacy Gangs PDF).

IMHO the supplements could have been used to do things like campaigns, possibly introduce gangs that they are selling via White Dwarf (e.g., Genestealer Cult or Chaos Cultists). Really hope they expedite fixing this stuff.
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Tom Hill
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D. Patton - thanks for putting this list together, hopefully you've seen this thread that was started, but didn't have too many other things:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1891933/some-faqs-and-errat...

In that thread I also noted that the Stiletto Knives on the ganger cards have -1AP while the RB Knives do not; it's unclear which is correct/incorrect.
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alex bermudez
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Sybaris wrote:
The proof-reading of that book is beyond repair...it's like it's been done by some 20 year old students who didn't read their work twice, and tested it maybe 2-3 games.


For a game that once had a fully-written, robust ruleset, they really took a big step backwards with this embarrassment of a set of rulebooks.

And it's only gonna get worse when they release rules fixes/errata/updates in later books. The rules are gonna be literally all over the place.

D. Patton, thanks for posting this. These questions really all need answers, and soon.

Although it's written somewhere in Gang War that when a +stat like WS is "reduced" the number goes up instead of down.
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D. Patton
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Decar wrote:
D. Patton - thanks for putting this list together, hopefully you've seen this thread that was started, but didn't have too many other things:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1891933/some-faqs-and-errat...

In that thread I also noted that the Stiletto Knives on the ganger cards have -1AP while the RB Knives do not; it's unclear which is correct/incorrect.


Just to clarify, I didn't compile the list.
I'm just copying an already prepared list that someone put up on dakkadakka. And that list was taken from another site so this list is making the rounds

Yaktribe is, what appears to me, the most visible Necromunda fansite. Over there, they've compiled their own FAQ with proposed answers. Their site covers all editions of Necromunda including a community edition updated in 2016. If you really like Necromunda, you should definitely check those guys out for ideas on terrain, rules interpretations, etc.
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alex bermudez
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Oh yeah, I go there from time to time. And while I was cool with their rulings for stuff in the NCE, for stuff that's currently supported I prefer official rulings. It just bugs me that I'm potentially playing the wrong way, and building "bad habits" with rules that were interpreted incorrectly.
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Mark
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I admire Yaktribe's drive and dedication. But, I always felt NCE was a bit of a compilation of nerf-ish pet peeve "fixes." Some changes just weren't necessary. Life is hard in the Underhive. Sucks when bad things happen to you. But, sometimes bad things level the field.

What is bad here (and, if you played Necromunda at the turn of the Millennium, this ain't new to you) is a rulebook(s) getting it wrong or confused right out of the gate. I'm generally forgiving, because I want this to succeed, too. Self-inflicted booboo's don't further the cause. They undermine confidence in the product, and turn off fence sitters. That sucks for folks invested in the game, and can cause others to miss out on a good gaming experience. It just ain't fun to pull out an extensive FAQ while teaching a game.

At the end of the day, I can forgive a few typos and troubles. Embedded problems that pop up in the middle of a campaign are harder to love. But, when the two starting gangs are poorly matched against each other, (including not adhering to their own backgrounds) that's just shooting themselves in the foot. IMHO, the Goliath's either have a slew of not so easy to fix typos, or they are supposed to immune to breaking and bottling. Both of which are the bane of the Eschers.
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I want it to succeed too, but i don't want to encourage rushed production either...and this game has clearly not been tested or they would have asked those questions themselves.

It's a shame, but as it is right now it is not worth the $. The miniatures are good, but that's about it.

If the Goliaths would cost 20 more points from base, it could be fine, as they could be outnumbered...but currently they are just flat out better than Escher, and i don't dig the "they are more rewarding" crap.

Right now the gas weaponry are only ok-ish for one-off games, as it's obvious that gangs will start paying for respirators as soon as they know an Escher gang brings a chem thrower...and by then it's useless (especially since it doesn't pin).

It's really cool to have gas masks, but there should be a drawback to wearing one as in real life (like a -1 to hit with ranged weapons or -1 initiative due to clogged field of vision), as currently all it does is to render a whole panel of speciality gear obsolete. This is poor design.

To add insult to injury, the combat shotgun is a complete joke...it costs less than half of the chem thrower, auto-hit so it automatically pins and stands an excellent chances of injuring an Escher ganger due to being scattershot (not the case vs Goliaths due to their T4)
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alex bermudez
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Yeah the chem weapons look real cool on paper, but when you realize that they're the only weapon that you can buy cheap "armor" to specifically defend against it, it's kinda stupid. The one advantage the Eschers have is easily and affordably neutered. It's an easy counter to the Esher's counter that they can't counter-counter. How anyone thought this was all okay is beyond my understanding.

I swear, the only way I can imagine that this game was playtested is if the lead tester came up with the great idea to run a hundred games of Escher vs Escher and Goliath vs Goliath, and they came back like "Its surprisingly balanced! Print it!"
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sam newman

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Sybaris wrote:
I want it to succeed too, but i don't want to encourage rushed production either...and this game has clearly not been tested or they would have asked those questions themselves.

It's a shame, but as it is right now it is not worth the $. The miniatures are good, but that's about it.

If the Goliaths would cost 20 more points from base, it could be fine, as they could be outnumbered...but currently they are just flat out better than Escher, and i don't dig the "they are more rewarding" crap.

Right now the gas weaponry are only ok-ish for one-off games, as it's obvious that gangs will start paying for respirators as soon as they know an Escher gang brings a chem thrower...and by then it's useless (especially since it doesn't pin).

It's really cool to have gas masks, but there should be a drawback to wearing one as in real life (like a -1 to hit with ranged weapons or -1 initiative due to clogged field of vision), as currently all it does is to render a whole panel of speciality gear obsolete. This is poor design.

To add insult to injury, the combat shotgun is a complete joke...it costs less than half of the chem thrower, auto-hit so it automatically pins and stands an excellent chances of injuring an Escher ganger due to being scattershot (not the case vs Goliaths due to their T4)


IMO gw suffer from to many playtesters to familiar with GW products that sort of already assume many of the rules through other gw products played. They really needed to test this with people unfamiliar to GW, also better proof reading.
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Tom Hill
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This thread contained another issue with one of the underhive scenarios:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1906424/scenario-5-sneak-at...

There's no way of eacaping the scenario once you win, other than dying and bottling. The rules of escape are in the GW suppliment.

For those worrying about balance, this thread on yaktribe has done a great job of actually looking at issues with player's tactics and only find a few minor faults with the rules:

https://yaktribe.games/community/threads/goliaths-overpowere...
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Mark
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Decar wrote:
This thread contained another issue with one of the underhive scenarios:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1906424/scenario-5-sneak-at...

There's no way of eacaping the scenario once you win, other than dying and bottling. The rules of escape are in the GW suppliment.

For those worrying about balance, this thread on yaktribe has done a great job of actually looking at issues with player's tactics and only find a few minor faults with the rules:

https://yaktribe.games/community/threads/goliaths-overpowere...

I love the Yaktribe tactics thread. Bring unbalanced gangs from the admittedly messed up, unbalanced Legacy Gang pdf. Load up on long-range weapons the Goliath's can't get. Load up on Plasma Pistols, which Goliaths can't do. And, play on tabletops with less terrain. And, those shooting gangs dominate Goliaths. Wow, brilliant!shake

Goliaths have short ranged weapons. I've been beaten playing with them where there was not enough terrain. And, I've been beaten playing against them, where there was. I just can't figure out the common factor. whistle
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Tom Hill
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My experience thus far with underhive has been cover goliaths with grenades, that is if you need to take them out of action.
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Can't wait for the official FAQ...but the amount of things to cover is baffling...i doubt they'll tackle them all if they put the same amount of energy that they did in the gang war book.

As for Goliaths getting shred by grenades...i don't know, Gas grenades would work well at the start of a campaign (unless the Goliath players knows you're picking Gas, then he will just grab some respirators). Frag Grenades will rarely do more than pin a Goliath...so you might just be better with a 5 point las gun to get the same result from a ganger. Frags do knockback though...but lacks an accuracy bonus and the range.

That being said, if you get the Goliath to spend more than 40 credits in respirators and you only take 1 set of gas grenades, then it might be a good idea. It's also a good way to equip melee focused champions to use their 3+ shots. Later on you can buy her Chem Synth in order to make that grenade more lethal.
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Mark
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Sybaris wrote:
Can't wait for the official FAQ...but the amount of things to cover is baffling...i doubt they'll tackle them all if they put the same amount of energy that they did in the gang war book.

As for Goliaths getting shred by grenades...i don't know, Gas grenades would work well at the start of a campaign (unless the Goliath players knows you're picking Gas, then he will just grab some respirators). Frag Grenades will rarely do more than pin a Goliath...so you might just be better with a 5 point las gun to get the same result from a ganger. Frags do knockback though...but lacks an accuracy bonus and the range.

That being said, if you get the Goliath to spend more than 40 credits in respirators and you only take 1 set of gas grenades, then it might be a good idea. It's also a good way to equip melee focused champions to use their 3+ shots. Later on you can buy her Chem Synth in order to make that grenade more lethal.

Ironically, grenades work better for Goliaths. Longer 12" range, ignore cover, and other gang's lower Toughness makes them more vulnerable to Frag grenades.
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