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Star Wars: Imperial Assault – Legends of the Alliance» Forums » Rules

Subject: LoTA Stun - Broken rss

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David Jensen
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How does a stunned E-Web Engineer execute the command line pictured?

If a unit is within Line of Sight I think he would attack, attack. Rules as written he would retain the stunned condition.
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David Bell
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The exact way that stun works is unclear, and pretty badly needs a FAQ and some examples, but I'm pretty sure it goes like this:

*> Attack <Diala Passil> - Imps can't attack while stunned, so skip this. 2 actions remaining.
*> Attack <Diala Passil> - Skip this too, for the same reason. 2 actions remaining.
-> *> Move 2 to attack < The closest hero > - If a hero is visible: instead of receiving 2 movement points, the engineer loses the stun token. Then, it attacks the closest hero and becomes stunned. 1 action remaining. OR- If there was no hero visible, skip this instead, 2 actions remaining. Either way, it'll have a stun token on it, either it still has the original stun token or it got rid of that one and got a new one.
-> If this figure did not attack, move 4 to reposition 3 - Since the engineer is stunned, instead of moving it will discard the stun token. It will either have 0 or 1 action left, but either way its activiation is complete. Even if it had an action left, imperials do NOT loop back through their list (a difference compared to the Descent app).
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Pat E. Cakes
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You can attack when stunned in LotA. Read the rules. There aren’t many.
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Kenny Felts
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Yes, LotA changes the rules for stunned for Imperial figures. They can attack during their own activation while stunned. If given a movement instruction, they gain no movement and instead discard stun.


Figures that are not currently activating follow the regular stun rules (i.e. an imperial officer can't order a stunned figure to move or attack).

This does make stunned a worse condition, but that's a good thing to help the limited AI as the regular rules make stunned a very powerful condition (perhaps too strong).
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William Roop
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I haven't played it yet, but I'm not sure I like the alternate set of rules from Campaign 1 v all and full co-op. Now there are 3 different modes of play, each with similar but different interpretations of some core mechanics. At least with Campaign vs strategy game, they printed different cards to use when the abilities were handled differently. I forsee spending MORE time in the rulebook if I play more than 1 way.

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David Bell
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It's... ambiguous. The sentence is really badly written. "Stunned Imperial figures cannot attack or voluntarily exit their space outside of their own activation."

It could mean "Stunned Imperial figures cannot (attack or voluntarily exit their space outside of their own activation.)" or it could mean "Stunned Imperial figures cannot (attack) or (voluntarily exit their space outside of their own activation.)"

The second one, I think, seems to be what they MEANT to write. At least, that's my impression based on what seems to actually function properly in, for example, this exact situation. If a stunned imperial CAN attack, then the engineer starts behaving wildly differently than according to the normal rules. Yes, the app changes rules, but even still a good guideline for ambiguous rules is to use the interpretation with fewer insane results.

Like I said, though, FAQ badly needed.
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Brian Taylor
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I am still a novice but I would have played it as the first action would be to remove the status and the second action would run down the list. I think the wording on stun prevents the imperial officer from EO\Orders(outside of the ewebs activation)
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Wouter Dhondt
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Why is everyone trying to follow the wording of stun using the card for the app? Use the new one from the app rulebook. Should be clear what to do, no?
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Jimmie Andersson
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Chipacabra wrote:
It's... ambiguous. The sentence is really badly written. "Stunned Imperial figures cannot attack or voluntarily exit their space outside of their own activation."

It could mean "Stunned Imperial figures cannot (attack or voluntarily exit their space outside of their own activation.)" or it could mean "Stunned Imperial figures cannot (attack) or (voluntarily exit their space outside of their own activation.)"

The second one, I think, seems to be what they MEANT to write. At least, that's my impression based on what seems to actually function properly in, for example, this exact situation. If a stunned imperial CAN attack, then the engineer starts behaving wildly differently than according to the normal rules. Yes, the app changes rules, but even still a good guideline for ambiguous rules is to use the interpretation with fewer insane results.

Like I said, though, FAQ badly needed.


But why would the imperials be able to "voluntarily exit their space" during their activation while stunned? If it didn't include the attack then it could just state that "Stunned Imperial figures cannot attack or voluntarily exit their space". (Otherwise that makes little sense with thier removal condition for stun, or is my logic off?)
I agree that this case is wierd and I don't think stun would be overpowered if it just made them loose an action instead (and that would make it a cleaner/easier rule).
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Cracky McCracken
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When an Imperial figure with the stunned condition would gain movement points from a Move instruction, it gains no movement points instead. After an Imperial figure with stunned resolves a move instruction, it discards the stunned counter.

So in the OP's Eweb example, the Imp would fire twice (if he has a valid Target of course) and retain the stunned counter. Only when the Eweb needs to move (or an officer tries to activate it outside of the eweb's turn) will you have to deal with the stunned counter.
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Cracky McCracken
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What's tough for me to figure out is what happens in the above example if eweb has no targets?

It drops down to a wonky double instruction to move two, and than attack closest reb. (And then get stunned again)

If not moving two spaces would still leave eweb out of los, does he skip it and drop down to next instruction... move 4 to reposition 3.

In which case he would move zero and discard stun counter. Yikes shake

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David Olson
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I'm going to agree with Chipacabra on this one. Stun still means stun, and the figure cannot attack when stunned. The clarifications in the LotA rulebook just describes how to remove the stun token.

The additional information about not being able to move or attack outside their own activation seems obvious, although maybe it is there to say that the figure can't remove the stun if an officer orders it to move?
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Jimmie Andersson
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Schmitter wrote:
I'm going to agree with Chipacabra on this one. Stun still means stun, and the figure cannot attack when stunned. The clarifications in the LotA rulebook just describes how to remove the stun token.

The additional information about not being able to move or attack outside their own activation seems obvious, although maybe it is there to say that the figure can't remove the stun if an officer orders it to move?


Stun is not still stun, these are changes to the stun and should replace it (otherwise Bleed should do an additional 1 damage per action, right?), also the "Stunned Imperial figures cannot attack or voluntarily exit their
space outside of their own activation" would be redundant if the rules were not replaced... but it is not super clear and an FAQ would be nice.
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David Bell
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I want to explain again what the ambiguity is, because I think some people misunderstood me.

The rule is: "Stunned Imperial figures can not attack or voluntarily exit their space outside of their own activation."

In English, this has two possible interpretations that could be semantically valid.

a) Stunned Imperial figures can not attack. Stunned Imperial figures can not voluntarily exit their space outside their own activation.

-OR-

b) Stunned Imperial figures can not attack outside their own activation. Stunned Imperial figures can not exit their space outside their own activation.


EITHER of these could be the intended meaning of the rule, but obviously they both can't be correct. This is one of those English constructions that can only be interpreted by context. Since the context isn't clear, a clarification is needed.
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Jimmie Andersson
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Chipacabra wrote:
I want to explain again what the ambiguity is, because I think some people misunderstood me.

The rule is: "Stunned Imperial figures can not attack or voluntarily exit their space outside of their own activation."

In English, this has two possible interpretations that could be semantically valid.

a) Stunned Imperial figures can not attack. Stunned Imperial figures can not voluntarily exit their space outside their own activation.

-OR-

b) Stunned Imperial figures can not attack outside their own activation. Stunned Imperial figures can not exit their space outside their own activation.


EITHER of these could be the intended meaning of the rule, but obviously they both can't be correct. This is one of those English constructions that can only be interpreted by context. Since the context isn't clear, a clarification is needed.


Very clear (your post that is). But in what situation would a stunned imperial figure have use of being able to exit their space voluntarily during their activation? (Since if they get a move they loose Stun, of course.) If there are any then it could be a otherwise it would point to b, right? (I'm operating under the assumtion that FFG writes rulebooks without making mistakes here )
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Michael Tagge
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picklethehutt wrote:

This does make stunned a worse condition, but that's a good thing to help the limited AI as the regular rules make stunned a very powerful condition (perhaps too strong).
It makes it practically worthless. It only really works on some melee opponents. Given the rules as written a Nexu could still pounce shake

The only other odd case where it could help is if you manage to stun an enemy who doesn't have line of sight to any targets. The move attack would still trigger because even though they don't move or attack there is a change in game state (the stun token is removed).
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David Jensen
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So the concsesus is Attack and Attack and Retain Stun for next round.

Basically don’t stun the E-Web and just kill him.
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Pat E. Cakes
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It seems VERY clear to me that B is the correct interpretation. And it is grammatically correct.
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David Bell
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No one said it wasn't grammatically correct. Of course it's grammatically correct. They're both grammatically correct, even though they don't mean the same thing at all. That's just how English goes sometimes.
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Vangelis Bagiartakis
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I don't know, but to me it's pretty obvious they mean (a). What's the point of stunning a figure if they can still attack you? Just to avoid having it move for one of its activations? Big deal!

The way I would play the E-Web above would be to skip the first 2 activations since it can't attack. Then, "perform" the third activation but don't do anything (it gets 0 movement points and it can't attack). After that you lose Stun and you don't gain it again because you ended up not moving/attacking in the previous activation. As a result you do the last instruction and move it to Reposition.

I agree though that it is not super clear and I could be wrong. What adds to the ambiguity is that the first IF asks if you performed the action while the second one, which is supposed to be the alternate outcome, asks if you attacked.

Anyway, let's hope we get an official answer on this soon.

By the way, I have been playing that Pounce is executed as normsl (since it's not "move") but it doesn't do the attack. Then, on the Reposition it doesn't move and loses the Stun. If you follow the instructions to the letter this is what I believe is the correct outcome.
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Noa

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The condition rules in the LotA rulebook completely replaces the condition rules in the RRG and reference cards.

If they didn't, then Imperial figures would be suffering 2 damage from Bleed, 1 from the normal strain and 1 from the LotA rule. Thus the entire rule is replaced. So ignore everything about Stun that doesn't come from the LotA rulebook.

Imperial figures that are stunned can still attack and can still exit their space (such as through Pounce), so long as it is during their activation.

In the case of the stunned E-Web, it will just attack twice as normal even though it's stunned, but if an elite Officer tries to command it, it won't be able to fire. It's interesting to me that they made stun so much worse but made Bleed so much stronger.
 
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Joe
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All bleeding says for the Imperials is to continue on as normal and take a damage each action the just like in a regular campaign. When the figure only has 1 health left, discard it for free. I don't see that being stronger unless a figure is taking a damage to move one space without really any reason to. If that's the case, you can always remove bleeding instead to help out the ai.
 
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Noa

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Stl0369 wrote:
All bleeding says for the Imperials is to continue on as normal and take a damage each action the just like in a regular campaign. When the figure only has 1 health left, discard it for free. I don't see that being stronger unless a figure is taking a damage to move one space without really any reason to. If that's the case, you can always remove bleeding instead to help out the ai.


In regular campaign, Bleed deals a strain. Even though that translates into damage on Imperial figures, that's still a different rule than suffering straight up damage. If we are adding the rules from the LotA rulebook to the RRG rules for the status condition, then Imperial figures would suffer both a strain (converts into damage) and a straight damage, which means 2 damage after each action, unless you are correctly interpreting that the LotA rules for conditions are replacing, not adding to, the RRG rules for conditions.
 
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Vangelis Bagiartakis
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TVboycanti wrote:

Imperial figures that are stunned can still attack and can still exit their space (such as through Pounce), so long as it is during their activation


This is where we disagree. For me, the LotA rule is clear: Stunned Imperial figures cannot attack. It is only questionable due to the grammatic ambiguity but thematically it makes no sense for the figure to be able to attack.

We have 2 interpretations of what they may mean out of which one is VERY similar to the core game while the other is drastically different and makes no sense theme-wise. Which one do you find most likely?

As I said, for me there is no question on how it is supposed to work.
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