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Subject: Saw the film they call star wars last jedi at last and it was amazingly bad. rss

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Mac Mcleod
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Wow.

It started off pretty but dumb it just got worse and more abusive the longer it goes. (edited due to objections of offensiveness in my original text).

Amazingly, it was not only not true to the original movies but to the force awakens as well.

So much of the movie was literally a pointless waste of time (an entire subplot).

Setting that aside, the movie was poorly and jarringly edited. And it could have used a good haircut...easily 20 minutes.

It destroys huge piles of canon. It betrays the fundamental nature of characters established decades ago. Like the d.c.u. travesty, the director seems set on deconstruction.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The entire plot turns on every ship in two fleets of ships having exactly the same velocities despite the fact the movie literally says one fleet is faster.

Also, the imperial fleet loses all ability to call in other ships or to have a ship or two hyperspace ahead.

And besides, if the resistance is down to 3 ships, one of them a hospital ship. It's really a police action anyway.

This entire snopes line comes out of nowhere anyway. TFA ends with a big victory. TLJ opening negates TFA (which also sucked.)


Many similar basic writing and plot holes abound even on a first viewing.

Mary Sue continues her display of advanced abilities with greater power than Jedi with years of training.

Finn might as well have never been a stormtrooper since it has literally no character effects on him.

Meh.

I have no interest in the next film now.

There were good parts and good individual scenez. Some good visuals. Non memorable music tho.

And I got the feeling by the end that the director was getting openly abusive to older fans and older canon.



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I really liked it myself. I sympathise somewhat with those who found it fairly average, but most of the things those who hated seemed to hate for were my favourite parts.
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Despite a few well acted scenes by Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher, my date and I found it generally boring and the action sequences predictable. That's not to say I won't see the next one but I won't see this one twice.
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Derry Salewski
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Octavian doesn't know the difference between a metaphor and bigotry, so you probably want to remove your reference to people with mental health diagnoses (or lack of them.)
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Derry Salewski
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And that movie is fucking dumber than dumb.
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Jorge Montero
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I am an older fan, but I'd rather side with the current director: Star Wars was as formulaic a story as it could be, it also has plot holes that you could drive a star destroyer though, and it's main saving grace is good pacing.

This is a story about failure, loss, and people being terrible. You are free not to like it, but I'd argue that every movie before it is dumber.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
I really liked it myself. I sympathise somewhat with those who found it fairly average, but most of the things those who hated seemed to hate for were my favourite parts.


I'm in this camp. I mean, you'd be pretty insane to argue that the Resistance plot-line wasn't idiotic and terrible, but Rey's story arc and the final sequence was really good.

I thought it was very solid, arguably on par with the Empire Strikes Back. The entire series has always had holes and this was far better than a number of the others and about the same as the rest.
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i really liked LAST JEDI - it has its flaws, sure (didn't care for Del Toro's performance, the Canto Bight sequence runs probably five minutes too long and the whole movie probably about ten, it's got occasional dialogue farts, and it has a mild case of multiple-ending syndrome; it probably also needed to answer some of the vague questions Force Awakens presented, like explain the exact relationship between the First Order and the Republic and the Resistance, and did not do this) but for the most part I thought it was really good because the things it upends (and it certainly upends a lot) are things that mostly needed to be upended

like, Force Awakens was a good Star Wars, and this is a good movie and those are two different things

maxo-texas wrote:
So much of the movie was literally a pointless waste of time (an entire subplot).


the point of the movie is that failure in pursuit of noble ends is, in and of itself, noble; this is a really bold thing for a Hollywood blockbuster to do, and it means that most of what the heroes do cannot succeed or actively makes things worse

like, I really love that Poe's entire arc is learning not to fuck up, because Poe is doing what in 99% of other action movies would be glorious and righteous, IE Ignoring Those Fuddy-Duddy Officers Because He's Got A Plan, Dammit, except whoops his plan doesn't work and in fact fucks up the actual escape plan for everybody, and in real life when someone in the military goes rogue and doesn't listen to their commanding officers that is usually what happens (albeit less dramatically)

but Poe learns from his mistakes and, when he realizes that there's really no point in a suicide run on the ground cannon (because what's the end game, exactly? wait for them to bring another ground cannon?) he calls off the attack, because from a story perspective it's pretty obvious that Poe is being groomed by Leia to be the new leader of the Rebellion, and he's growing into his role

Quote:
It destroys huge piles of canon.


no it doesn't

Quote:
It betrays the fundamental nature of characters established decades ago.


no it doesn't; if anything it mostly reinforces them

because let's be honest, you're talking about Luke here, and if you want to talk canon, Luke is the guy who went to the second Death Star with basically no plan whatsoever except "hope for the best" and managed to fluke a win out of it (and remember, the time previous to that when he went in with his plan being "hope for the best" Darth Vader chopped off Luke's hand so it's not like he didn't have experience with stupid plans)

Luke not becoming a great Jedi Master doesn't betray anything about the character at all, nor does Luke becoming an embittered recluse, because the Emperor called it back in Jedi:

LUKE: "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
EMPEROR: "Your faith in your friends is yours."

and the Emperor was TOTALLY RIGHT, because that IS Luke's weakness, he believes deep in his heart that via the power of love and friendship all evils can be overcome, and when Ben demonstrated (rather pointedly) that this isn't always the case that fucking shattered Luke, all the moreso because it was his nephew

Quote:
The entire plot turns on every ship in two fleets of ships having exactly the same velocities despite the fact the movie literally says one fleet is faster.

Also, the imperial fleet loses all ability to call in other ships or to have a ship or two hyperspace ahead.


yeah, this is a fridge logic moment, but ever Star Wars has fridge logic moments (here's another one for you: if hyperspace ramming is so deadly why didn't the Resistance immediately cram everybody onto the big carrier and then hyperspace-ram the First Order fleet with, say, the medical frigate?) and those don't make the movie BAD; you might as well say "okay, so if they were hiding Anakin's kids from him, why did they stick one of them on Anakin's homeworld and give the kid Anakin's last name"

these are family adventure movies, and the adventure genre as a whole always has fridge logic because a good adventure story is trying to get from A to B to C and has to ignore all the "what about this" moments to tell the story efficiently

Quote:
Mary Sue continues her display of advanced abilities with greater power than Jedi with years of training.


Rey:

A) is a naturally-gifted Force user, which is a thing that happens in Star Wars and a plot point that manifests frequently therein
B) only manifests Force abilities after Kylo Ren forces his way into her mind but doesn't expect her to be Force-capable and the "telepathy works both ways" trope is common enough that it's always sad when nerds don't understand that's what happened in Force Awakens
C) is going up against Kylo, who is Evil, and the first law of Star Wars is that Evil Is Arrogant And That Is Its Great Weakness
D) thus far she has A) managed to barely defeat Kylo after he's been gut-shot by Chewbacca and taken an additional lightsaber side-wound from Finn, B) killed a few non-Jedi/Sith gumbies who didn't even have real lightsabers and C) managed to basically tie a healthier Kylo in a Force duel;

basically the big takeaway from the movies in this aspect is that Rey has a lot of raw power but not a lot of finesse or skilled control

Quote:
Finn might as well have never been a stormtrooper since it has literally no character effects on him.


ah yes the legendarily competent stormtroopers who have not been a nerd in-joke for literally decades, those stormtroopers, yes
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Mac Mcleod
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scifiantihero wrote:
Octavian doesn't know the difference between a metaphor and bigotry, so you probably want to remove your reference to people with mental health diagnoses (or lack of them.)


I have more faith in Octavian's judgement than that.


If my name appears on the list, well guess I was wrong.

The film is destructive and abusive. I think it will do a lot of damage to the value of the i.p.

As of now, it is seeing a "historic" decline in ticket sales and I probably won't be seeing the last film in theaters.

I certainly won't be seeing this drek again in my lifetime. Glad I didn't pay a premium to see it.

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maxo-texas wrote:
As of now, it is seeing a "historic" decline in ticket sales


it really isn't

like, initial projections were that it would decline 69% weekend-to-weekend based on Friday advance ticket sales (which is how they project total weekend ticket sales) and that would have been disastrous, but it ended up having a 55% decline instead, which is certainly on the lower end of an acceptable decline for a healthy box office hit but still quite acceptable (Guardians of the Galaxy 2 and Thor: Ragnarok: both had about 55 percent declines, and Rogue One had 57 percent); also, Last Jedi got handicapped a bit because unlike Force Awakens, it had Christmas Eve (which is usually a slow day for movies) on the weekend, which hurt box office a bit (Rogue One had the same problem)

the new cycle of Star Warses tend to make about 65 percent of their domestic gross in the first two weekends, and if Last Jedi holds up (and there's no real reason to think it won't) it'll probably end up with about $650-700 million domestic and probably about the same in foreign, for a total worldwide gross of $1.3 to 1.4 billion; not as good as Force Awakens, but still better than just about everything else under the sun
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maxo-texas wrote:
The film is destructive and abusive. I think it will do a lot of damage to the value of the i.p.


No, it's not. It's a movie you didn't like. Which is fine. But please stop equating a movie not happening that way you wanted it to with actual abuse.
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mightygodking wrote:

Luke not becoming a great Jedi Master doesn't betray anything about the character at all, nor does Luke becoming an embittered recluse...


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Not to go into spoilers too heavily, but I thought the movie was bad, was boring to watch throughout for me. My biggest complaint is it destroys a lot of the setting up from the previous movie. Luke was very out of character, I can see why Hamil hated the direction and didn't think Luke should go into this direction. I loved The Force Awakens, my only problem with that movie was it being a rehash of episode 4 but otherwise good. So Luke leaves a map to find him if he's needed, and then he just doesn't want to be found at all or help...
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maxo-texas wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The entire plot turns on every ship in two fleets of ships having exactly the same velocities despite the fact the movie literally says one fleet is faster.

Also, the imperial fleet loses all ability to call in other ships or to have a ship or two hyperspace ahead.

And besides, if the resistance is down to 3 ships, one of them a hospital ship. It's really a police action anyway.

This entire snopes line comes out of nowhere anyway. TFA ends with a big victory. TLJ opening negates TFA (which also sucked.)


The Resistance fleet is slightly faster, but running out of fuel. Not sure what the problem is here.

The Resistance plan involves getting somewhere with a powerful enough transmitter to send a message to their allies. Maybe the First Order are also too far away from here to send a message? Also, they just took over the galaxy after wiping out the Republic in the last movie, so a lot of the fleet is spread thin asserting themselves elsewhere.

Again, make sure you really watch the movies. In TFA, the First Order destroys the Republic. They are on the verge of destroying the Resistance base. Blowing up Starkiller isn't a "major victory", it's an act of survival. (It's almost like this other movie I saw a long time ago. This plucky band of rebels blows up a space station that's on the verge of wiping them out. But instead of winning immediately, in the next movie they find themselves outnumbered and on the run. Weird!!)
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I liked that it was funny and unexpected. Star Wars hasn't had those two qualities for a long time.
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Well.. I lost a big post when the editor glitched so I'll use this instead.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/23/the-audience...

Quote:
The box office numbers for the second Friday of Star Wars: The Last Jedi are in and they paint a bleak picture for the Rian Johnson-directed sequel. Down 77 percent from its opening day last Friday, the picture continues to distinguish itself as the worst holding film in the Star Wars franchise's entire nine-film history.

From its opening day gross of $104.7 million, The Last Jedi cratered by a full $80 million, taking in $24.6 million a week later, on its second Friday.


Here's a chart of the decline in box office. High is bad on this chart. TLJ has the largest drop ever.




Don't get me wrong. It will be profitable. But it's burning a lot of fans who may not be back. Perhaps it's picking up new fans who will eagerly await the next film.

I'm not the only person who feels this way.

Continuing from the article above.

Quote:
But even after adjusting for such differences, The Last Jedi still manages to live up to its title, sitting in last place as the Star Wars picture least capable of holding its audience. Or perhaps more pointedly, in failing to bring moviegoers back for multiple viewings. As Miles Bailey, a formerly fervent fan of the Star Wars films told me, “Disney shouldn’t bank on the hardcore, cosplay, convention crew like myself seeing this film 6, 7, 8, 9 times. Episode 8: The Last Jedi set out to kill everything about episodes 1-7 and succeeded. I’m not excited by Solo or episode 9. Star Wars is done for me.”


I won't be seeing Solo by default either.

The numbers show Rotten Tomatoes "Audience Rating" is representative of the actual audience and make me very suspicious of the critics ratings.

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chopkins828 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The entire plot turns on every ship in two fleets of ships having exactly the same velocities despite the fact the movie literally says one fleet is faster.

Also, the imperial fleet loses all ability to call in other ships or to have a ship or two hyperspace ahead.

And besides, if the resistance is down to 3 ships, one of them a hospital ship. It's really a police action anyway.

This entire snopes line comes out of nowhere anyway. TFA ends with a big victory. TLJ opening negates TFA (which also sucked.)


The Resistance fleet is slightly faster, but running out of fuel. Not sure what the problem is here.

The Resistance plan involves getting somewhere with a powerful enough transmitter to send a message to their allies. Maybe the First Order are also too far away from here to send a message? Also, they just took over the galaxy after wiping out the Republic in the last movie, so a lot of the fleet is spread thin asserting themselves elsewhere.

Again, make sure you really watch the movies. In TFA, the First Order destroys the Republic. They are on the verge of destroying the Resistance base. Blowing up Starkiller isn't a "major victory", it's an act of survival. (It's almost like this other movie I saw a long time ago. This plucky band of rebels blows up a space station that's on the verge of wiping them out. But instead of winning immediately, in the next movie they find themselves outnumbered and on the run. Weird!!)



Here's some of the problems that fans have with it I believe and including myself.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
They had around a day left, surely they could have called another ship to come in, and even without that, surely they could have sent some tie fighters and bombers which are much faster then the capital ships to attack. Originally that wasn't their plan, the plan was to evacuate the Resistance on small transports which would supposedly be harder to spot while purple haired lady leads them away, then once on the base they decided to call anyone for help as it was their last hope as the plan had failed and basically all of the resistance that's left is holding out on that base.
 
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LolaGranola wrote:
mightygodking wrote:

Luke not becoming a great Jedi Master doesn't betray anything about the character at all, nor does Luke becoming an embittered recluse...




Now see, this is a great point. And they could have *used* this point effectively in Luke's conversation with Yoda.
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There was quite the organized review bombing, thanks to our good friends the gamergaters.

I wish for the first trilogy to be re-released today, just to hear them complain about the princess picking han solo over luke.
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LateCold wrote:
chopkins828 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The entire plot turns on every ship in two fleets of ships having exactly the same velocities despite the fact the movie literally says one fleet is faster.

Also, the imperial fleet loses all ability to call in other ships or to have a ship or two hyperspace ahead.

And besides, if the resistance is down to 3 ships, one of them a hospital ship. It's really a police action anyway.

This entire snopes line comes out of nowhere anyway. TFA ends with a big victory. TLJ opening negates TFA (which also sucked.)


The Resistance fleet is slightly faster, but running out of fuel. Not sure what the problem is here.

The Resistance plan involves getting somewhere with a powerful enough transmitter to send a message to their allies. Maybe the First Order are also too far away from here to send a message? Also, they just took over the galaxy after wiping out the Republic in the last movie, so a lot of the fleet is spread thin asserting themselves elsewhere.

Again, make sure you really watch the movies. In TFA, the First Order destroys the Republic. They are on the verge of destroying the Resistance base. Blowing up Starkiller isn't a "major victory", it's an act of survival. (It's almost like this other movie I saw a long time ago. This plucky band of rebels blows up a space station that's on the verge of wiping them out. But instead of winning immediately, in the next movie they find themselves outnumbered and on the run. Weird!!)



Here's some of the problems that fans have with it I believe and including myself.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
They had around a day left, surely they could have called another ship to come in, and even without that, surely they could have sent some tie fighters and bombers which are much faster then the capital ships to attack. Originally that wasn't their plan, the plan was to evacuate the Resistance on small transports which would supposedly be harder to spot while purple haired lady leads them away, then once on the base they decided to call anyone for help as it was their last hope as the plan had failed and basically all of the resistance that's left is holding out on that base.


Aye. Each Star Destroyer has a full wing of seventy-two TIE fighters (six squadrons of twelve ships each) is standard aboard each Destroyer.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
So there were hundreds of available TIE fighters. This bugged me even if each Star Destroyer only had 18 TIE fighters each and maybe another 36 for Snoke's ship


Spoiler (click to reveal)
One other thing that bugged me during the movie was why would Snokes guards even fight at all after Snokes was dead? It seems like at least one or two would have sided with the new leader. But I guess brainwashing. It didn't bother me a lot. Just a little. They seemed really stupid to fight to the death like that.)
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
Aye. Each Star Destroyer has a full wing of seventy-two TIE fighters (six squadrons of twelve ships each) is standard aboard each Destroyer.


Nerd!
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LateCold wrote:
chopkins828 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The entire plot turns on every ship in two fleets of ships having exactly the same velocities despite the fact the movie literally says one fleet is faster.

Also, the imperial fleet loses all ability to call in other ships or to have a ship or two hyperspace ahead.

And besides, if the resistance is down to 3 ships, one of them a hospital ship. It's really a police action anyway.

This entire snopes line comes out of nowhere anyway. TFA ends with a big victory. TLJ opening negates TFA (which also sucked.)


The Resistance fleet is slightly faster, but running out of fuel. Not sure what the problem is here.

The Resistance plan involves getting somewhere with a powerful enough transmitter to send a message to their allies. Maybe the First Order are also too far away from here to send a message? Also, they just took over the galaxy after wiping out the Republic in the last movie, so a lot of the fleet is spread thin asserting themselves elsewhere.

Again, make sure you really watch the movies. In TFA, the First Order destroys the Republic. They are on the verge of destroying the Resistance base. Blowing up Starkiller isn't a "major victory", it's an act of survival. (It's almost like this other movie I saw a long time ago. This plucky band of rebels blows up a space station that's on the verge of wiping them out. But instead of winning immediately, in the next movie they find themselves outnumbered and on the run. Weird!!)



Here's some of the problems that fans have with it I believe and including myself.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
They had around a day left, surely they could have called another ship to come in, and even without that, surely they could have sent some tie fighters which are much faster then the capital ships to attack. Originally that wasn't their plan, the plan was to evacuate the Resistance on small transports which would supposedly be harder to spot while purple haired lady leads them away, then once on the base they decided to call anyone for help as it was their last hope as the plan had failed and basically all of the resistance that's left is holding out on that base.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
1. The First Order did send some TIEs on an attack run and blew out the bridge of the main Resistance ship. But again, the Resistance ships are a little faster, so the TIEs were called back since they were too far out of range of the big ships.

2. Once the Resistance figured out that they were being tracked through hyperspace, the plan was to book it to Crait. Then they would load everyone on transports, which the FO wasn't scanning for, and someone in the lead ship would lead the FO away as they called for help at the base. This was always the plan. We just don't know that this is the plan until Poe is told about it.
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mightygodking wrote:
(here's another one for you: if hyperspace ramming is so deadly...


...why wouldn't every fleet be armed with hyperspace torpedoes so that you could just devastate your enemy in seconds without the fuss and bother of losing all those fighters and other ships?

This was unquestionably one of the stupidest decisions in the movie. Great special effects, but it bordered on Starship Troopers movie tactical idiocy.
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hibikir wrote:
There was quite the organized review bombing, thanks to our good friends the gamergaters.

I wish for the first trilogy to be re-released today, just to hear them complain about the princess picking han solo over luke.


I was unaffected by the review bombing and went to the film based on some positive comments here. I liked the first 10 minutes of the film quite a bit.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
even missing the ludicrous constraints on the bombers.

It did bug me significantly that the entire fleet seems to ignore Admira Organa's direct orders when Poe turns off his personal comm. And the fact that the bombers just sorta materialized right next to the fleet without being attacked.
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maxo-texas wrote:

Now see, this is a great point. And they could have *used* this point effectively in Luke's conversation with Yoda.


And why would they need to use it? The audience should know it and have the smarts to realize it. Luke losing his faith is just a perfectly sensible thing to happen and it's a very common religious trope. Instead the conversation covered parenting, tradition and legacy. That it's what we live behind that matters, not how we feel the next generation is behaving. It's a far more interesting, more powerful message to deliver on a world that is changing, and where many complain that things are not how they used to be. Luke thought the world was one way, and that he was one way, and reality told him that he couldn't live through his ideals. His one moment of weakness was horribly misunderstood, and out of it, a monster was created, regardless of what his feelings and intentions were. He can hide and be ashamed, but no amount of going around the galaxy whining would change that.

What I wonder is if the movie really is way too smart for its audience, or it's just that its message is so repellent to many of the viewers that they want to cover their ears and call "fake news".
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