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Twilight Imperium (Fourth Edition)» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Races Tier List - Ranking (help collect data!) rss

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Victor Pluntky
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EDIT:

Adding this to the top most post so you don't have to scroll through everything to find it:

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Nate Davey
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has made a great Google Forms site where everyone can help collect data on Twilight Imperium 4 games. its super easy to fill in and only takes a minute. All data will be collected and we will look to process the data in different ways to discover all sorts of interesting statistics on the races on the game.

Just click the link below to get to the site:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdxUpE6H5FA1LEzbrbG...

Feel free to share this link in your TI4 group the more data the better stats

And here are the ranking tables fo rthe collected data:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c2fGqedk13kS8PR2XF1O...


Below is my original post:
________________________________________________________________________

We have been keeping stats of our TI4 games in our fairly competetive TI4 group (10 games of TI4 so far and probably a hundred games of TI3 before that). Maybe someone with better computer skills than me would like to put together some code for using data input from players to generate some sort of tier list? We have listed each race played with its position and the number of points it scored in every game. This is my raking for our 10 games, not necessarily very conclusive but does definitely show a clear trend for some races.

1 - 5.0 Universities of Jol-Nar
2 - 4.3 Emirates of Hacan
3 - 4.0 Federation of Sol
4 - 3.0 Nekro Virus
5 - 3.0 Brotherhood of Yin
6 - 2.7 Sardak Norr
7 - 2.5 L1z1x Mindnet
8 - 2.5 Clan of Saar
9 - 2.3 Ghosts of Creuss
10 - 2.3 Barony of Letnev
11 - 2.0 Yssrail Tribes
12 - 2.0 Nalu Collective
13 - 2.0 Mentak Coalition
14 - 1.8 Xxcha Kingdoms
15 - 1.8 Arborec
16 - 1.5 Winnu
17 - 0.0 Embers of Muat

The races are given a score from 0 to 5 where 5 means they have won each game they were in and a 0 means they have lost each game they were in.

Let me know if you wanna help compile data in some way or if you have some questions =) I like statistics haha
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Christopher Halbower
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
I suspected the Jol Nar would be the top of the list. There are sooooo many tech objectives the Jol Nar are at a big advantage.

 
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Nick Naz
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
What player counts were these games played at? And how do you think that affected their scores?

My group is very competitive as well, Sol has fallen flat every time they get played, whereas the Creuss are considered a top 3 race- their mobility seems to dictate how the game will go, and its hard to take their home system to stop them from winning.

Our list looks like this:
Serious as about winning- Jol-Nar, Hacan, Creuss, Saar, L1z1x, Letnev, Yin
Want to do fun things but probably not win- Sol, Naalu, Xxcha, Mentak, Yssaril
Want to play thematically?- Arborec, Nekro, Muatt, Norr, Winnu

The more we play, the more we are realizing that your race matters way less than your relationship with your neighbors. Having nice neighbors, or "making" them nice with promissory notes is much more influencial than the race you play. I just had a game today where I paid a neighbor to attack my flagship armada with a cruiser so I could score a secret objective. The catch was he had my support for the throne, because we had to exchange them earlier in the game, and had to trust me to return it to him after the deed was done. I did, and it was a relationship I was very happy to have in the game.
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Victor Pluntky
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
These were 4, 5 and 6 players games, with an even mix of each player count.

Some races are definitely better at different player counts. One that stands out particularly is Hacan in a 4-player game where Trade is taken every round so they get to use their ability. In a 5 or 6 player game this Strategy Card might not get picked to prevent them for gaining an advantage.

I think Sol is a really strong race with their starting fleet, starting techs and 1 extra counter each round and also a stalling ability to put out GF. The value of a CC has increased inn 4th ed so this means they get extra 3 influence and an extra action card every round. Not bad... Also they have good and easy to tech unit upgrades and race techs which fits well with 3 objectives.

Jol-Nar can (and should) tech Hyper Metabolism round 1 and so have pretty much the same abilities as SOL. And they can easily tech PDS II round 2 for 3 PDS shots all around their home system for a nice and safe start =)

I don't consider Cress that strong as it matters way to much how the galaxy looks for them to make any use of their ability. If people are aware of them they can prevent them before the game has even started.

Of course it matters a lot which neighbours you have and if you are giving Support of the Throne away. But I don't like people trading Supports early in the game, just makes for a boring game where if you draw a secret or if a public objective that forces you to attack another player it always comes at a cost of a VP. I understand that some people house-rule this card out of the game in that case =)
If everyone just sits in their own little pie slice of the galaxy and waits around to score objectives that's boring. Neighbours are close for a reason, so you can attack them!

Sounds weird that someone would agree to paid 1 CC 2 resources worth of a cruiser and loose 1 point giving another player 1 point... What could you possibly have given him that would be worth that, maybe you have a 2-VP Support card? haha I for one would never agree to any such deal =P
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Joshua Schutte
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
Sol , Letnev, Hacan, Nalu and Jol-Nar are all tier 1. Nekrovirus sucks your always behind everyone in tech, with so many tech objectives possible your behind in points too. Norr isn't that good, they need more.
 
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
I feel like "Wins" is a rather irrelevant scoring system, especially with so few plays recorded in total. You said you also tracked how many points they scored each game? Why not simply track "Average Points Per Game" and rate them that way on a 10 point scale? Races that win are still inherently going to come out with high numbers, but it gives us a clearer picture of all those in between.

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Victor Pluntky
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
IncrediSteve wrote:
I feel like "Wins" is a rather irrelevant scoring system, especially with so few plays recorded in total. You said you also tracked how many points they scored each game? Why not simply track "Average Points Per Game" and rate them that way on a 10 point scale? Races that win are still inherently going to come out with high numbers, but it gives us a clearer picture of all those in between.



I was thinking of doing just this but was unable to solve it technically. Have to get better at excel... hehe
So for now I have just awarded races points based on position like this:

6 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0
5 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 0
4 player game: 5, 4, 3, 0

I know this isn't ideal since placing 2nd to last in a 4 player game would actually be a better than average score (when it should be below average). Gonna try to figure out a better way to do this but for now this is all I could muster.
 
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Tim Burris
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
I don't understand your ratings. If 0 means that a race has lost each game they have appeared in, and you have only played 10 games, shouldn't a lot more races be rated 0?

edit: Never mind, I see your most recent post now.

Personally I am inclined to treat second place as the first loser, and not worth any more points than last place, but that does make it more difficult to compile stats in a game as difficult to get on the table as this one.
 
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Victor Pluntky
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
Crikrunner wrote:
Sol , Letnev, Hacan, Nalu and Jol-Nar are all tier 1. Nekrovirus sucks your always behind everyone in tech, with so many tech objectives possible your behind in points too. Norr isn't that good, they need more.


I think Nekro can be decent since they can tech as much as they want for 1 resource and 3 influence by building destroyers that they send out to take pot shots at fighters. All they need is to land one of their Anti Fighter Barrage hits before return fire to get a free tech. But yeah it is circumstantial and not always the easiest thing to pull off. Hit or Miss with them.
EDIT: One of Nekros strong points is also that they can use the Technology Strategy Card like it was Initiative. Primary is gain 3 CC or pay 6 resources to get 6 CC, not bad... Secondary is pay 1 CC and 4 resources to gain 3 CC. And CC are much more valuable in TI4 =)

I agree Sarrdak Norr is probably one of the worst races in the game. Their ability is pretty useless so the only good things they have are: good starting fleet and very good race-tech-upgraded dreadnoughts.

Personally I think Norr should get +2 to hits and Jol-Nar -2 to balance things a bit =)
 
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Victor Pluntky
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
Bizud wrote:
I don't understand your ratings. If 0 means that a race has lost each game they have appeared in, and you have only played 10 games, shouldn't a lot more races be rated 0?

edit: Never mind, I see your most recent post now.

Personally I am inclined to treat second place as the first loser, and not worth any more points than last place, but that does make it more difficult to compile stats in a game as difficult to get on the table as this one.


We used to only keep stats for wins but especially in TI4 games have been very close and many times it came down to the wire... We just finished a game where the winner scored a secret in the action phase for 10th point while I was on 9 points and would have scored a public first and 3rd and 4th place both has 8 points.

SO I want to try and compile some sort of statistics of how likely a race is to do well in a game. If a race consistently ends up at the bottom unable to score any points it should be ranked down. But if a race always tend to come in 2nd place scoring 8-9 points it probably shows it has a good potential to win even if it has never done so. Many things in TI4 comes down to luck and so it is certainly not a safe bet to always play the "best" race but I think that after time some races will stand out as more "consistent" than others.
 
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
binnet wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
I feel like "Wins" is a rather irrelevant scoring system, especially with so few plays recorded in total. You said you also tracked how many points they scored each game? Why not simply track "Average Points Per Game" and rate them that way on a 10 point scale? Races that win are still inherently going to come out with high numbers, but it gives us a clearer picture of all those in between.



I was thinking of doing just this but was unable to solve it technically. Have to get better at excel... hehe
So for now I have just awarded races points based on position like this:

6 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0
5 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 0
4 player game: 5, 4, 3, 0

I know this isn't ideal since placing 2nd to last in a 4 player game would actually be a better than average score (when it should be below average). Gonna try to figure out a better way to do this but for now this is all I could muster.


Like he said, just literally compute the average number of points that race has scored in each game it has participated in.
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Nick Naz
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
binnet wrote:
These were 4, 5 and 6 players games, with an even mix of each player count.

Some races are definitely better at different player counts. One that stands out particularly is Hacan in a 4-player game where Trade is taken every round so they get to use their ability. In a 5 or 6 player game this Strategy Card might not get picked to prevent them for gaining an advantage.

I think Sol is a really strong race with their starting fleet, starting techs and 1 extra counter each round and also a stalling ability to put out GF. The value of a CC has increased inn 4th ed so this means they get extra 3 influence and an extra action card every round. Not bad... Also they have good and easy to tech unit upgrades and race techs which fits well with 3 objectives.

Jol-Nar can (and should) tech Hyper Metabolism round 1 and so have pretty much the same abilities as SOL. And they can easily tech PDS II round 2 for 3 PDS shots all around their home system for a nice and safe start =)

I don't consider Cress that strong as it matters way to much how the galaxy looks for them to make any use of their ability. If people are aware of them they can prevent them before the game has even started.

Of course it matters a lot which neighbours you have and if you are giving Support of the Throne away. But I don't like people trading Supports early in the game, just makes for a boring game where if you draw a secret or if a public objective that forces you to attack another player it always comes at a cost of a VP. I understand that some people house-rule this card out of the game in that case =)
If everyone just sits in their own little pie slice of the galaxy and waits around to score objectives that's boring. Neighbours are close for a reason, so you can attack them!

Sounds weird that someone would agree to paid 1 CC 2 resources worth of a cruiser and loose 1 point giving another player 1 point... What could you possibly have given him that would be worth that, maybe you have a 2-VP Support card? haha I for one would never agree to any such deal =P


I like your scoring system.

I agree that I always think Sol will be good, but there just seems to be too many "target capital ships" or "kill GF" abilities that take away their "Numbers" advantage. They really do need a 2 planet system to produce the high numbers of units that they need as well. In our games it just never seems to pan out well for them.

Creuss is mobile without any wormholes close. The +1 from your home system, and gravity drive and their flagship are very powerful. I mean thats a 3 movement flagship that brings a Fleet with it right there. If you actually use a wormhole... you can really "reach out and touch someone". They have been a winner/right there in every game they're in.

I love trading support for the thrones turn one to a neighbor. Its not a binding thing, you can still attack them at will unlike a ceasfire. It gives you only one border to fight over early which can really help you put your ships into combat and not sitting back on defense. I will say I have found there to be much more combat when people are trading Support for the Thrones and forming loose alliances most of which will break down at some point in the game.

I was Muatt and traded him my promissory note for warsun tech. It was round five and he was a red tech away from having warsuns anyway. I would do that trade again easy. Especially simce we had swapped Support for the Throne cards it meant those warsuns were most likely going towards someone else-> they did. Plus Muatt really is terrible and I needed every possible point I could scrounge up.
 
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
Interesting, I just played as Jol-Nar today and got crushed. My main issue with them is that I always feel like I'm using tech to bypass the -1 roll with attacks and it doesn't seem worth it to me.

I also got screwed on only having 1 tech objective. I had only 3 planets adjacent to my base as well and I got attacked on both sides so I couldn't really do a whole lot late game. I made some mistakes but wondering what I should have done to do better. I got the one racial tech that gives me 4 trade goods whenever someone activated a system I had a ship in which was awesome.
 
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
mallowgeno wrote:
My main issue with them is that I always feel like I'm using tech to bypass the -1 roll with attacks and it doesn't seem worth it to me.


Nooo! That's the one thing you shouldn't do! Just embrace the -1 to rolls, and use your tech to fill up on abilities which make your fleets superior. Pick up Light/Wave deflectors and Warsun, and threaten every system on your half of the map!
 
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Ian Lippert
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
binnet wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
I feel like "Wins" is a rather irrelevant scoring system, especially with so few plays recorded in total. You said you also tracked how many points they scored each game? Why not simply track "Average Points Per Game" and rate them that way on a 10 point scale? Races that win are still inherently going to come out with high numbers, but it gives us a clearer picture of all those in between.



I was thinking of doing just this but was unable to solve it technically. Have to get better at excel... hehe
So for now I have just awarded races points based on position like this:

6 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0
5 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 0
4 player game: 5, 4, 3, 0

I know this isn't ideal since placing 2nd to last in a 4 player game would actually be a better than average score (when it should be below average). Gonna try to figure out a better way to do this but for now this is all I could muster.


How many times was each race played? If your group is experienced and picks jolnar every time then of course it's going to be at the top.

Average VPs per game would help but this list seems inherantly biased due to the amount of luck in the game.
 
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David Forsling
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
binnet wrote:


I was thinking of doing just this but was unable to solve it technically. Have to get better at excel... hehe
So for now I have just awarded races points based on position like this:



If you want you could just send the data raw and I could help you crunch it. I have been thinking about collecting stats to start making a rating anyway. Your stats would be a very welcome addition
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Jonathan Challis
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
IncrediSteve wrote:
I feel like "Wins" is a rather irrelevant scoring system, especially with so few plays recorded in total. You said you also tracked how many points they scored each game? Why not simply track "Average Points Per Game" and rate them that way on a 10 point scale? Races that win are still inherently going to come out with high numbers, but it gives us a clearer picture of all those in between.


Actually I disagree - points in a vacuum means nothing, points relevant to other players matter. Only wins matter.
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Steve Williams
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
Kelanen wrote:
Actually I disagree - points in a vacuum means nothing, points relevant to other players matter. Only wins matter.


Actually everything in a vacuum means nothing. The best race will vary by who you are playing with, what the galaxy setup looks like, what objectives come out in what order, even some laws will change it. If we can see certain races consistently perform well or poorly, that is useful information we can actually attain with the data present. Otherwise, 10 games isn't even enough for one person to have tried every race. The data sample is too small for only wins to be recorded.
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Adam McLean
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
Kelanen wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
I feel like "Wins" is a rather irrelevant scoring system, especially with so few plays recorded in total. You said you also tracked how many points they scored each game? Why not simply track "Average Points Per Game" and rate them that way on a 10 point scale? Races that win are still inherently going to come out with high numbers, but it gives us a clearer picture of all those in between.


Actually I disagree - points in a vacuum means nothing, points relevant to other players matter. Only wins matter.


That is true ... ultimately, winning is what matters (and having fun), but points over a good sample size will reflect better on how the races perform through a variety of variables such as number of players, setups, objectives in play, and so forth.
 
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Stefan Winter
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
binnet wrote:

6 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0
5 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 0
4 player game: 5, 4, 3, 0

I know this isn't ideal since placing 2nd to last in a 4 player game would actually be a better than average score (when it should be below average). Gonna try to figure out a better way to do this but for now this is all I could muster.


I did something similar a few years ago. I used this:

6 player game: 1, 0.8, 0.6, 0.4, 0.2, 0
5 player game: 1, 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0
4 player game: 1, 0.66, 0.33, 0
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Joshua Schutte
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
For the upcoming Columbus league I'm going to try 3 or 4 different scoring systems.

Margin of Victory
get points = to all the players they are ahead of. ie Hacan 10, Letnev 9, Sol 7, JolNar3, Muatt 2, Xxcha 0:

Hacan = 29
Letnev = 24
Sol = 16
JolNar 4
Muatt = 2
Xxcha = 0

Average Score
your score / # of players

Normalized Score
points based off place i.e.
6 player game: 1(first), 0.8, 0.6, 0.4, 0.2, 0(last)
5 player game: 1, 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0
4 player game: 1, 0.66, 0.33, 0

ELO Based system
each player starts season with 1200 points. They bid x% into the kitty for the game. Winner gets X% of kitty added to score on down.


Really it comes down to is are certain wins better than other wins. Does your score reflect your performance in the game, or does your place order matter more.

If winning is all that matter then just give rewards for 1st.

My main fear is other score systems will make people more point focused for 2nd place on down, or do you only care who wins?
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
Even though I have only played the game once I would want to make an argument that on contrary to the popular opinion Federation of Sol should be the most consistent, the highest winrate, faction. I even think that all of the Sol's advantages combined it can possibly approach a state of being game-breaking.

A list of Sol's advantages:

1. It appears "the fleet meta to beat" consists of mass fighters. Sol is the best faction at this, and can field 3 separate power forces: 2*2 carriers with 16+ capacity each and a flagship with 12+ capacity. Naalu and Sardakk have better fighters but their disadvantages (far less fighters, unfavorable starting techs) mean their power comes later if at all. Versus countering attempts, e.g., Exotrireme IIs, mass fighters should turn out to be quite resilient. For example, retreating after killing the carriers to kill the most of the fighters is too bad if you are going to lose your ship production capability.

2. The "best tech path" (according to my current perception of the game) is to get Gravity Drive and Fleet Logistics with an idea to increase options available to you (or rather open a selection of advantageous options that can be game-winning). Sol has extremely favorable starting techs to get these, Advanced Fighters and Advanced Carrier IIs. As an extra bonus Sol also comes with Neural Motivator, the best lvl 1 tech (Sarween Tools is a trap, by the way, and should not be acquired before going for Space Dock IIs).

3. Starting planets should not matter much to Sol. Fighters can be spammed with few resources, production capacity being the bottleneck, leaving Jord to researching technology cards. On contrary to this, a Jol-Nar has to get resourceful planets to be able to even pretend that they have a fleet. If/when a neighbor Jol-Nar disregards self-defense a Sol can remove the Jol-Nar player from the game without giving him a chance to respond. The Sol can first pick Politics, stall, and after Jol-Nar passes attack and take hexes from 3 distance with Carrier IIs equipped with Gravity Drives. The next turn the Sol picks Leadership and uses Fleet Logistics to invade Jol-Nar's space dock hexes. There is very little that a Jol-Nar can do, even if he happens to win 1-2 space battles. The damage done after the Politics turn should already be too great and the Jol-Nar practically dead. Keep in mind that how the Sol executed this did not give an opportunity to the rest of the table to react either.

4. Even if "all players are playing optimally and not giving such opportunities as described above" I doubt politics can have a role in determining the winner. The game is a military conquest one and Sol possesses the best tools to separate itself from the rest: Great ships, great starting techs, and an extra command token each round.
 
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Victor Pluntky
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
kjdhgdfg wrote:

1. It appears "the fleet meta to beat" consists of mass fighters.


Fighters were definitely the Meta in TI3 but not any more. Not gonna go into too much detail but, things like Flagships and tech that shoots through fighterscreenss at capital ships and flagships with abilities makes them less good then they were.

kjdhgdfg wrote:
(Sarween Tools is a trap, by the way, and should not be acquired before going for Space Dock IIs).


Why would Space Docks II make Sarwen Tools better?


Jol-Nar has everything Sol has, an extra counter every round (except round 1) since they of cource tech it first round. They also draw 2 action cards every round. Also they have 2 more techs to start off with that makes it super easy to tech Cruisers II and Dreadnaughts II. With PDS II round 2 noonw will want to mess with them early game with at least 3 PDS shots fired at them anywhere close to their home system.
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
Nemeth wrote:
binnet wrote:

6 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0
5 player game: 5, 4, 3, 2, 0
4 player game: 5, 4, 3, 0

I know this isn't ideal since placing 2nd to last in a 4 player game would actually be a better than average score (when it should be below average). Gonna try to figure out a better way to do this but for now this is all I could muster.


I did something similar a few years ago. I used this:

6 player game: 1, 0.8, 0.6, 0.4, 0.2, 0
5 player game: 1, 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0
4 player game: 1, 0.66, 0.33, 0


I wanted to do somthing like this but I couldn't get it to add a different sore to the same possition when the player count was different. Gonna try to make it better.
 
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Victor Pluntky
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Re: Races Tier List - Ranking
I have made a new Google Sheets document where I removed all the stats pertaining to our player ranking. So all that is left is the ranking of the races. You are welcome to look at it here. If you want to add your own games that would ge great and we can collect the data and anyone that likes can process it in whatever way they like. Send me a geekmail with your g-mail account e-mail and I will add you as an editor for the document (so you can input data). The more data we collect the better the rankings will get =)
Please only list games of TI4 that were played with normal rules (and not some very strange house rules). I.e. if it's too different from the base game it might not belong here, but you be the judge of that.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EHXXT8f05BxyYw6lMJqe...

See the tabs at the bottom:

"Log": All the raw data from the games.
"Stats (other)": some other data crunching
"Stats (Races)": ranking of the races.

Also feel free to give this thread a thumbs up (at the very top) so that maybe more people can see it. I edited the title and top post. =)
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