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Subject: Well.. rss

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Aaron Kempkes
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I had a bad experience in the Board Game Design forum, with one thread deleted for a reason I was unaware of and another locked because people were being unfortunate. I really am just trying to get involved here. And frankly, my impression thus far has been very discouraging. I made the mistake of posting about an idea I was pursuing and I guess I am posting here because I feel like this is where I am being pushed to.

I'm an avid board gamer. I have around 80 games and I host a monthly board game night with friends. I am in the process of pursuing a couple projects that I was really excited about it until around 30 minutes ago. So instead of talking about my idea I just want to know what I can do here to not get immediately trolled.

This is the last attempt at trying to use these forums so I hope to meet some of you before my post is deleted.
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Jim McMahon
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alkgames wrote:
I had a bad experience in the Board Game Design forum, with one thread deleted for a reason I was unaware of and another locked because people were being unfortunate. I really am just trying to get involved here. And frankly, my impression thus far has been very discouraging. I made the mistake of posting about an idea I was pursuing and I guess I am posting here because I feel like this is where I am being pushed to.

I'm an avid board gamer. I have around 80 games and I host a monthly board game night with friends. I am in the process of pursuing a couple projects that I was really excited about it until around 30 minutes ago. So instead of talking about my idea I just want to know what I can do here to not get immediately trolled.

This is the last attempt at trying to use these forums so I hope to meet some of you before my post is deleted.
In no particular order:
Act naturally. If you have a question about a game, make a thread in that game's forum and ask it. If you see a question asked, answer it if you know the answer. Fill in some of your profile information (disclaimer: I didn't go in to check your profile, so if you already have, then disregard). Don't worry about threads that have been deleted. Contribute. Be constructive. Have fun. Buy yourself an avatar.
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Aaron Kempkes
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Thank you, Jim. I was honestly ready to just quit using these forums. I kinda got blindsided when I posted about a Kickstarter I was working toward in the Board Game Design forum and I was told by another it was skeptical that my profile had nothing in it but that's because I'm new to this and I literally just signed up last night. I am just not sure if I have to do certain things to fit in here. It really just feels like a bad version of high school so far and after my initial contact with some of the users, it kind of felt like no one wanted to really welcome me unless I proved I played 100s of games and contributed best of lists. I appreciate you though for your response and your advice. I'm just a little discouraged. I probably shouldn't be but it took the wind out of my sails a little.
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Brad Miller
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Read what was posted in the locked thread.

Admit you were in the wrong.

We certainly welcome you to the site, but, TBH, your departure because you feel wronged by how mean we are, isn't really going to impact any of us, as you have contributed nothing to the site, other than your somewhat advertizy post. We see those every day...
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Paul K.
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I looked at your previous (locked) thread, and I honestly don't think people were intending to "troll" you. Your first post was deleted for being "advertising" (or at least appearing to be). It seems you didn't intend for that to happen, and it was an honest mistake. Learn from it and move on.

Your second thread was (apparently) just complaining about your first thread. Since you had received the answers you were seeking (why was it removed), it didn't really serve any further purpose.

So now it's probably best to just move on from that. You're a new user, you were graciously given some GeekGold to get an avatar and start showing us your "personality" as a person/designer, rather than the face of a soulless company (which is what I would tend to assume from your username - alkgames).

You're more than welcome to post in the Board Game Design forum, I would encourage it! But look at some of the other posts - it's people looking for thoughts on their game designs, not talking about a future company or Kickstarter. In fact, many of the designs/designers on here never actually create a published game. They make print-and-plays, games that can be downloaded and played, and maybe a few of them may submit their designs to publishers or self-fund through Kickstarter but definitely not right off the bat.
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Sorry you've had such a rough landing. Jim's got some good advice, and there are plenty of other ways to go about BGG. As you may well notice I run pretty light in the information/avatar department, by choice - it's a good place to start but by no means a requirement.

Participation in some form is key though. Doesn't have to be complicated. Ask a question. Open a discussion on some aspect of boardgaming / a specific game you like, or want to know more about. Literally anything that's topical. "I liked X, would I like Y?" Or just say "Hi. Talk to me about X."

You don't even need to start your own threads if you don't want to. Just cruise around and find whatever peaks your interest and comment, if you want. Leave some thumbs. Maybe upload a picture or two if that's your jam. Whack the Monopoly piñata a few times, it's practically a BGG tradition.
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Pete Martyn
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Welcome aboard!

Stick with it and I think you'll like it here. That is a heck of a rough introduction -- I saw one of the other threads and there were definitely some people who were being less than friendly. But that's honestly pretty rare.

Please understand that the game design forum in particular gets a fair number of new users who sign up thinking they've got the next Trivial Pursuit or Cards Against Humanity or Settlers of Catan or whatever. It's not uncommon for them to show up, post a bunch about how awesome their game is and how no one understands their genius, and then flame out when people offer constructive criticism.

So my advice to you would be to poke around, jump into conversations that have nothing to do with you or your game, and if you're interested in game design, definitely dig deep into that subforum. You'll find that for the most part the people there are genuinely passionate about game design and willing to meet good-faith efforts by others with intelligent and reasonable feedback. I think some of them are just tired of new users who come in thinking they own the place. I'm not saying you're that at all -- just that the game designers can be a little protective of that space.

There's no wrong way to BGG and it's bar none the best boardgaming resource in the world, so I do hope you'll stick around! Best of luck to you -- in no time at all that initial rough arrival will fade and you'll wonder how you ever made it through the day without checking in here
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Aaron Kempkes
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I cannot access the locked thread, man. You don't need to follow me to another post to lecture me more. I said I didn't mean for the post to sound "advertizy". I was told my profile needed to be updated. I did that. I posted in New Users to get advice from people who aren't trying to make me feel like crap about what I can do to navigate these forums.

And I'm tired of there being another thing I haven't done. I am aware of this. I am new to the site.

The other posts came up after I posted this. Thank you for the advice. I really just am surprised that I got the response that I did. I wish you all had been my first experience here.

I understand that people get on there and advertise and that it can be annoying. I was really passionate and excited and I love board games so I wanted to talk with people who shared my interests. I am also searching for new games and its exciting to me when I hear about new mechanics or a fresh take on an old idea. Everybody has a blindness to a certain extent and I certainly don't think I have the next Spiel des Jahres but I want to try. Because if you don't try, you don't succeed.

Thank you all for being so gracious on this post and honestly this is how I envisioned these forums being. I definitely feel a lot more welcome here than I did in the other forum. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just hurt and I have no problem displaying that. I also will stick up for myself so maybe there was misconception on both sides and I take responsibility for anything I said or did that caused skepticism but I have been working on my profile and I look forward to conversing with you all further.
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Aaron Kempkes
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I apparently went about it in a way that gave the wrong idea but my intention was to see who was interested so I could share ideas and gauge interest in a particular set of ideas or a rule set. I love card games so my aim is to create a lot of those. In fact, I love games like Jaipur that rely on a set of really important choices. For instance, you grab a gold and a diamond comes up that could complete your set of 3. That is heartbreaking when it happens to you but it gives the games a tension that I want to try to capture without being dry.
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Jim McMahon
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alkgames wrote:
I love card games [...]I love games like Jaipur that rely on a set of really important choices.
Have you tried Fantasy Realms yet?
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Aaron Kempkes
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No I haven't but it looks awesome! I have to say I've gotten hooked on games like Jaipur and Patchwork lately, even though I had dabbled in them before. Is Fantasy Realms better than Jaipur?
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Rich Shipley
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I remember early internet forums that advised just reading a forum for six months before posting. That seemed a bit long, but the point was that you should understand the forum customs before jumping in.

If you look in your profile, your posts here can be found under the Contributions tab. If you think of your posts as contributions, you should be on the right track. Answer questions, ask questions (the answers may be useful to others as well), make a joke, point out something interesting, etc.

A new user talking about their upcoming game they want to sell will generate some skepticism, but there are many posts you can make without setting off any alarms. Ask about the game mechanisms you can use, ask about making a prototype, ask for help wording rules, just don't mingle sales talk in with those questions.

If you have questions about the commercial aspects and even how to do things on KS, don't mention the game, just the issue you are dealing with.

If you get to the point where you want to sell the game, you can post in press releases, you can add the game to the database, there are geeklists you can add it to, and you can buy advertising on the site.

If you are interested in contributing to the site, that's great. If you just want to generate some interest in your game, that's also fine but you have to carefully follow the rules.
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Paul K.
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alkgames wrote:
I cannot access the locked thread, man. You don't need to follow me to another post to lecture me more.


FYI - I never posted in any other threads, and didn't know they existed until you posted this here. Are you able to (view but not post) this?

Bad Taste In My Mouth

I only ask because there are several helpful posts there - particularly the last 3 (Julian, Adrian, and MM/Octavian).
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Aaron Kempkes
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And while I felt like initially I wanted to post in the Board Game Design forum, I'm really not feeling like I want to post there again. I might in the future, but as of right now, this is the only place I have felt good about posting in. I understand that's probably a good place to post and I pushed the wrong buttons, I probably will avoid it now.
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Aaron Kempkes
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Yes, I can click on that. Thank you! I read the last three posts. It would have been helpful if I had seen those. Like I said, I didn't have any bad intentions. I can see how it would be perceived that way but I would have much rather had the response here over the response I got over there. Oh well, water under the bridge. I guess I'm just a little more humbled now.
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Aaron Kempkes
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Thank you Rich! That is really helpful information. I would have approached it that way had I known that posting about a game would generate such animosity. I guess I come from a mindset where if someone has an idea and wants to know about it, I like to have context, you know? I was trying to establish myself as someone who was serious and who had an end goal. But unfortunately, as luck would have it (just like the fuel line freezing in my car in these below zero temps), it got perceived as being a salesman. I will definitely follow this advice now. I have been perusing the forums for months but I noticed all the posts talking about games and got excited. I was like oooh I want to talk about my game too! It may make me sound a specific way but that really kind of hurt how that all happened. But I am happy that I kept at it and met you all.
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Herb
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Aaron, first I'll point out that the site is very friendly in spite of your first impression. The admins go to great lengths to prevent trolling. Believe it or not, the more common complaint is that the admins are too quick to jump in, rather than too slow.

I'll also say that you are somewhat the victim of a number of previous posters who spammed the site with promotions of their game (or game to be). The bad actors didn't just post in one forum, but a dozen of them. So to stop such bad behavior the site has some official guidelines about how such posts are to be done, and which you evidently unknowingly ran afoul of.

The "New User" flag on your ID is supposed to give you some benefit of the doubt. Sorry it evidently didn't work for you. (It goes away in 30 days...)

There is a dedicated group on site called LASH who tries to delete spam, and typically the spammers account is deleted too. Glad that didn't happen to you. But the site gets spam posts for near everything, from DVDs to Viagra.

I don't know where you'd find more knowledgeable gammers to help you with design problems than the geeks here. So I'd suggest that you think of the Design forum as a resource, not an impediment, for the game you're trying to create.
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Jim McMahon
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alkgames wrote:
No I haven't but it looks awesome! I have to say I've gotten hooked on games like Jaipur and Patchwork lately, even though I had dabbled in them before. Is Fantasy Realms better than Jaipur?
I won't say it is better, since that's just a matter of preference, but personally, I like it better. It is full of interesting/risky/tough decisions. As long as you can accept that you could possibly end up with a hand that's worthless (then start over and play again) you should be alright.
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Indeed, glad that you're going to stick it out - and sorry your intentions got misconstrued. herace makes a very good point that it's a near weekly occurrence around here that some sparkly-eyed new 'designer' shows up thinking they've got the next Pandemic on their hands. Typically they'll be super-secrative about their Awesome© Amazing™ Never Before Seen™© Totally Original© Thing that will get stolen in a hot minute if they so much as breathe a word about it. But expect everyone to jump at the chance to immediately offer them Kickstarter money by the barrow because they have the Best Game Ever©™©™©™.

And then the mods will come along and shovel 'em into the incinerator.
Keeps the place nice and toasty.

It's cool if you don't want to post about your project, nobody's gonna get bent out of shape. Or you can just break it down into mechanics and chew on those - it's actually more common that Board Game Design works just part of a design - concepts or specific problems, and those tend to be the topics that get the most traffic.
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Ryan Morency
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I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I think that BGG is quite overzealous when it comes to policing threads about Kickstarter games. Particularly so, when you take into account that half of the ads on the site itself are for running Kickstarters.
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Aaron Kempkes
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Jim, I like games like that because it feels like a puzzle that is always changing. It is never the same (or rarely ever the same) and every game is completely different. I love that in Jaipur, you can free up space by getting some extra camels, which can be an advantage later on in the game, but you could open up your opponent for multiple golds or silvers. I think that it is really just whomever makes the most mistakes first and calculates wrong but that is what makes it fun to me. So if this game is like that, I will definitely have to try it out! I don't mind a game where I have to try again. It gives me an excuse to play it again lol

And that's kind of what I was trying to say earlier. I want to have games with mechanics that stand the test of time. To be honest, even though deck builders are exhausted, it is games like Legendary, Star Realms and Dominion that are the gems of that genre. Set collection is one that I personally enjoy because it is a huge puzzle sometimes, but it's not for everyone. Every time I come up with an idea, I ask myself, is this understandable by everyone? I have some people in my family during holidays that refuse to play board games when I bring them. I just got a Game Haul for Christmas which I'm super excited about but I even bring games like Codenames and they won't join. So I guess that was my inspiration a little. How to we get more people into the hobby?

I will try to give it another chance but it will take a while to go back to that side of BGG again, especially since I probably have a reputation now. I am not denying there are great minds on here and people willing to help and my intent isn't to bash the community here. I completely understand that people were spamming to put their idea out there or just ads in general, in which case I say be skeptical but don't immediately jump down someone's throat. While I could have approached my post in a different way, other people could have been a little less accusing I guess. I am glad that I know now the guidelines for Kickstarter projects, however, because the last thing I need is negativity surrounding a potential project.

Good night everyone,
Aaron
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Derry Salewski
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Odinsfury wrote:
I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I think that BGG is quite overzealous when it comes to policing threads about Kickstarter games. Particularly so, when you take into account that half of the ads on the site itself are for running Kickstarters.


You're commecting two things in the wrong direction!

They want a cut of any advertising

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Chris Stanton
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I'd give it about 30 days - or enough time for the New User tag to vanish
In the meantime get involved with other aspects of the site.
Adding your games to your collection is useful as others can see it & can give better & more targeted answers to your questions.


As for bringing others into the hobby, some just don't want to be brought in. In my extended family there's one lot that just will not play games & will not even entertain the suggestion of games (despite playing Trivial Pursuit ), one lot that tend to be mostly party games, another lot are into the social games- Codenames & the like & another lot that are more akin to the typical user here.
I don't even bother trying to get the non-gaming ones to play, no matter how easy or good the design, illogical or just plain wrong their reasons.
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col_w
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alkgames wrote:
And I'm tired of there being another thing I haven't done. I am aware of this. I am new to the site.


I didn't see the original thread only the complaint thread and this one, and others have given some good advice on those already.

So my advice is only on how to use the site functionality, rather than how to connect with the community:

It's sometimes hard to see who you are replying to. If you're responding to a specific person/point, it's useful to use the "QuickQuote" link rather than the "QuickReply". The QuickQuote will put the entirety of the person's post you are replying to in a quote block in your reply - you can then choose to trim out anything unneccesary (especially if a ziggurat starts building - lots of nested quotes).
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James Clarke
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