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Through the Ages: A New Story of Civilization» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Why do people like Ham so much? rss

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Eric Rodawig
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So here's how I understand the Age A leaders:

Julius Caesar: Warfare (5 temp science) + one-time 1 extra PA
Moses: ~5 food
Aristotle: ~6 science
Alexander the Great: 1 yellow token
Homer: 1 happy face, ~2 rocks
Ham: +1 CA (Code of Laws) -1 MA (Warfare) (1 temp science)

The loss of the MA is a pretty steep penalty; Julius can be "replaced" by Warfare, but Code of Laws is far superior to Ham...

 
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Shane Larsen
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I don’t understand the logic here. Code of Laws is an Age I special technology. Hammurabi is an Age A Leader. Why is it either or? What if I get them both?

Also, Code of Laws cost 6 science, which could instead go to other, critical, early-game use. And it takes several rounds to collect that kind of science early on. Hammurabi—on the other hand—can give you the extra CA as early as your second turn. Having that kind of early-game flexibility can have a big ripple effect.

Those are just a few thoughts from the hip.
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Jack Liu
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ChipsAhoya wrote:
So here's how I understand the Age A leaders:

Julius Caesar: Warfare (5 temp science) + one-time 1 extra PA
Moses: ~5 food
Aristotle: ~6 science
Alexander the Great: 1 yellow token
Homer: 1 happy face, ~2 rocks
Ham: +1 CA (Code of Laws) -1 MA (Warfare) (1 temp science)

The loss of the MA is a pretty steep penalty; Julius can be "replaced" by Warfare, but Code of Laws is far superior to Ham...



You are overrating some of these leaders for best case scenarios and looking at things in a vacuum

I would say Moses is usually 4 food, Aristotle is closer to 4 sci, homer maybe 1 rock.

+1MA is worst in A1 because that's not when military tactics ramp up and it's easy to defend + draw something useful.

+1CA is extremely helpful in the beginning to hit 5CA before getting COL or a gov. Also Ham allows for easy Monarchy revolt and saves you 1 more CA when you swap to A1 leader.

Aristotle, Ham and Alex are my top A leaders
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Eric Rodawig
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Well yes, comparing leaders against each other needs to be in a vacuum. Obviously the tableau can change things.

Even if Aristotle is only 4 science, that gets you almost all the way to COL, which can be had on T3 if you pulled Urban Growth, and that seems way, way better than Ham.
 
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Christian K
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It is because the xtra civil action helps so much earlier and the millitary action doesn't matter that much. Also, you have the flexibility to choose to use him or not each turn.
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Kester J
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I tend to find that one benefit when you have Hammurabi is that you get your pick of the age I leaders: between the discount and the extra CA, you can pull them from pretty much anywhere in the row. This can be pretty meaningful when they're a lot more situational than the age A leaders - it's not uncommon to see two or more players who would really like Leonardo, for example, who is the only real "infrastructure" leader in age I.
 
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Brent Celmins
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One of my favorite Age I Combos with Ham is:

Revolt to Monarchy, take a new leader for free, replace Ham, do something else useful.

Doesn't happen every game, but the chance presents itself often enough. You are essentially getting CoL AND Warfare for 2 sci while getting most of a full turn, to boot.

Not to mention if you happen to have Breakthrough, you can do all this for 0 science. Maybe you snagged Barbarossa, develop Knights with that extra CA you got back after revolting and all that juicy science you saved, and do Freddy's thing, too.

Oh, and if Taj Mahal is there...

Ham is also the only leader who can take Monarchy and revolt in the same turn.

There are also some little details that I like about Ham. He makes Stockpile useful. He makes taking cards for 2CA a good idea, and he can reach for a card for 3CA without destroying your rhythm in Age I.

No other leader offers you that kind of flexibility.

It's possible to get enough science through Aristotle to develop CoL early, but just as much has to go right in the Aristotle/CoL combo as in the Ham/Monarchy combo, and the latter is far more powerful in the long run.

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Matthew Kameron
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Agreed. Important to the above is that 1 CA is worth more than 1 of any other resource in Age A -- hence why people avoid the Age A yellow cards unless they have no other better options. (and hence why Age A Eng Genius is so darn good)
 
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Ido Abelman
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Quote:
Why do people like Ham so much?

Because it's delicious

More seriously, I think your comparisons are a bit off. It's not quite right to compare an age A leader to an age I technology because of the time frames they act in. Age A leaders - probably right from the start until mid age I or maybe the entire age I. Age I tech - probably from mid age I to the end of the game. The timeframes are different so the values of what they give you are different.

Ham gives you CAs for a shorter period of time than CoL but he gives you them earlier, when they are more valuable. And he might give you an extra effective action when you take another leader. He doesn't really give "-1 warfare" as you don't lose a strength and you get to choose each turn whether or not to lose that MA. Also for hand limit and defense cards limit you didn't lose anything.

The extra CA might mean more resources (yellow cards, avoiding corruption) and extra flexibility when picking cards, especially leaders.

The extra MA and strength from Julius again is comparable to a very early warfare, but that is exactly when it is not effective. You'd need to get a successful agression for it to pay off which is difficult to do early now. Maybe strength events can help but it takes a while until they even come up. And in any case you need to build up extra military for others not to pass you.

And Aristotle, if he give 4 science, is not that close to a CoL actually. That means 2 more are needed which is significant early on, and you need the card to come up right and pay 2-4 civil actions.
 
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Mark Strik
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Ham is more like a free Pyramids that you finish in round 2.
 
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Brent Celmins
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CBpegasus wrote:

And Aristotle, if he give 4 science, is not that close to a CoL actually. That means 2 more are needed which is significant early on, and you need the card to come up right and pay 2-4 civil actions.


Not to mention that you don't want to draft techs that you aren't interested in discovering just to get the +1 science. It's all well and good if you get to take Knights and Alchemy... not as great if it's Masonry and Printing Press.
 
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Christian K
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Printing press is awesome
 
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George I.
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frotes wrote:
Aristotle, Ham and Alex are my top A leaders
While I agree, I tend to view Alexander and Homer as equivalent* choices. Alexander gives you an extra yellow token and effectively 2 food: 1 for increasing your population with 2 food instead of 3 food and 1 for delaying consumption by a whole turn. Homer gives you a free happy face, thus granting you indirectly a yellow token, the one you would use to cover your happiness need, protecting you also from Rebellion and potentially setting you up for the Immigration event. Homer does not cost you your political action, on top of that. Oh, and 1-2 rocks for military units.

Thus, if I have Homer at 1 CA and Alexander at 2 CA, I will usually happily take Homer.

*assuming you are not getting the Hanging Gardens as your Age A wonder; in that case, Alexander is far superior to Homer, as a third happy face adds little. Likewise if the free temple event comes up.
 
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Jack Liu
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To the OP, i would take Aristotle over Ham.


As for Alex/Homer, I think there are pros/cons to but I just personally prefer Alex. The yellow cube is better in the long run after you get more effective happiness. You may also choose to leverage his str early on to get in an aggression or just get the extra food on turn 3.

Homer is better vs early rebellion but also restricts your A1 a bit. You need to finish your wonder early to swap him out before A2 (this may be easier or harder depending on number of players). Also you won’t be able to jump on an early A1 Leader if it comes up because of that. There are also other ways to avoid early rebellion (temple event, jumping to certain a1 wonders)

I find them more equal in 3p games than 4p (due to wonder/leader selection)
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Unknown Might
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My personal reason is simple:
A1 leaders are stronk, stronk enough for there to be a certain competition amongst players to pick a particular one to fit the current situation.
Ham makes the competition a lot easier.
 
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Mark Strik
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unknownmight wrote:
Ham makes the competition a lot easier.

I second that. With Ham, I wouldn't want one of my age I favourites arriving too early. I'd like to discover Monarchy or Code of Laws first. Especially without Pyramids.
 
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Juan Pablo Fontana
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Homer can make a great combo with hanging garden, st. Peter's and Michelangelo.


If you're lucky enought to string all of that you can score a huge amount of culture early on (9-12 per turn), keeping michelangelo during age I and II.

You can then use bach to turn your religion buildings to operas and theatres during age III.

You don't have to worry of happy faces in the whole game.

If you can keep the military pace it's a sure win in a 2 player game (you depend of the others not being stupid in 3/4 player games, cause if one player is losing wars for 20 culture each you have to play wars too)


Regards from buenos aires, Juan-





 
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Ido Abelman
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Juan8173 wrote:
Homer can make a great combo with hanging garden, st. Peter's and Michelangelo.


If you're lucky enought to string all of that you can score a huge amount of culture early on (9-12 per turn), keeping michelangelo during age I and II.

You can then use bach to turn your religion buildings to operas and theatres during age III.

You don't have to worry of happy faces in the whole game.

If you can keep the military pace it's a sure win in a 2 player game (you depend of the others not being stupid in 3/4 player games, cause if one player is losing wars for 20 culture each you have to play wars too)


Regards from buenos aires, Juan-


Homer and Hanging Gardens is actually an anti-combo... Either of them will deal with the first unhappy worker, effectively giving you an extra population early. If you have both it will take a looong time for the third happy face to mean anything (it already takes a while for Hanging Garden's second happy face to be helpful). So if you took HG+Homer and didn't manage to take Michelangelo or he came late in age I, you're definitely worse off than with any other age A leader (especially Alex is comparable here and definitely better at that situation). If you do get Michelangelo, congratulations! Homer lets you get 1 more culture each turn. That's not much for lacking an age A leader that could help with infrastructure, and that's not even boosted by St. Peter's as HG+Homer are treated as one source of happy faces.

Even HG+Mike+St. Peter's might be a bit of going too strongly on culture too early when you should usually prefer infrastructure, but it can work. HG might be replaced by any other wonder with Homer. But going with all four cards is definitely worse.
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Mark Strik
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Mike & St. Peter's is strong enough. And St. Peter's is one of the best wonders on its own, so even without Mike, it's not a needless surplus of happy faces. Unlike Homer's Gardens.
 
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Juan Pablo Fontana
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So you say that is better to settle to 3/4 points per turn with a leader like Michelangelo, even if he can can score you 10 culture points per turn if you do things correctly?

If i don't have hanging gardens i would not even try to pull a mike strategy. You can score 3 points/turn with ghenghis ands have other bonuses....

Regards, Juan.

 
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Brent Celmins
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Juan8173 wrote:
So you say that is better to settle to 3/4 points per turn with a leader like Michelangelo, even if he can can score you 10 culture points per turn if you do things correctly?

If i don't have hanging gardens i would not even try to pull a mike strategy. You can score 3 points/turn with ghenghis ands have other bonuses....

Regards, Juan.



It's 100% better to get 3-4 culture per turn with Mike because you're more likely to be able to keep it later on in the game. If you build HG + the Basilica, that's 14 rocks and (at least) 7 CAs very early in the game. There's no way you can keep up militarily in a game against high-level players concentrating on Age I culture production.

You'll lag so far behind in military in late Age II and Age III that all that culture will end up in the other players' hands.
 
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E_R S
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I'll only consider taking Mike if I have wound up with the Gardens and gotten either the temple from the religion event and/ or have added Homer to the Gardens. The obvious reason is that the culture production has to be high enough to risk losing it all later, and you will need the rocks to defend yourself, you can't waste them building additional cultural stuff.

Plus I would want either the Basilica or the Wall as my next wonders. But I'm not sure which works better than Mike. The Wall still provides an additional Mike culture point and adds that all important military production. But admittedly the Basilica/ Gardens/ Mike combo produces so much culture that you have a shot at defending it if you are just able to do the mid-game pivot to military.
 
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John Nelson
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After playing a lot of games it seems like Hammurabi is definitely the safest choice out of any of them because of how easy it is to both grab good cards, build infrastructure and possibly revolution without taking corruption at any point and its easy to stay within military distance with patriotism which is basically a better MA option for Hammurabi since he can now use his MA as discounted/free soldier. one less CA for taking leaders can often let you take a leader for FREE and getting someone like Barbarossa is pretty common to immediate response of military buildup and since its Hammurabi transitioning is soooo easy.

Mike can kind of work even without the culture engine madness if you got irons built early with rich land and probably both engineering genius to build wonders(Universitas/Library) fast to make your wonders generate something of value for you instead of dedicating workers to either t1 science buildings. He can often stay well in order in Age II if the right wonders appear early. Even so I rarely grab Mike unless he's really worth it but sometimes you can just pop 4-5 wonders depending on how bad you need them.
 
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