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Subject: dungeon crawl + traitor? rss

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ghost whistler
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Would a Dungeon crawl style game with a traitor element be viable?

Or do two great tastes not a great taste together make?
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Andreas Esbech
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ghost whistler wrote:
Would a Dungeon crawl style game with a traitor element be viable?

Or do two great tastes not a great taste together make?


I think the answer is yes. On both accounts. It all comes down to how much work you're willing to put in.

I think the traitor mechanic here is the most important. How do you want to achieve that? I'm not that familiar with that mechanic, but do you want something along the lines of Dead of Winter where everyone has a secret objective that makes some of the (seemingly) suboptimal decisions seem suspicious? Do you want a hidden role game where players already know that there is one or more traitor(s), like Bang?

Basically, why would a player want to betray the others in order to win? How can said traitor be fought and how can he hide?
 
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Jo Bartok
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Yes have been working on one with a traitor, too. Implementation details matter a lot here.
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Eugene Koriakin
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Technically, Betrayal at Baldur's Gate (and its predecessor set in a certain house on the hill) is exactly that - a dungeon crawler with traitor mechanisms.
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Andreas Esbech
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L3g10n wrote:
Technically, Betrayal at Baldur's Gate (and its predecessor set in a certain house on the hill) is exactly that - a dungeon crawler with traitor mechanisms.


I feel slightly embarrassed missing that. blush
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Pepijn van Loon
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Sure, why not?
You could add an "evil action phase" during each player's turn where they have to make a choice for the evil side (spawn new monsters, give a monster an extra action, draw a bad event card, add a trap to a deck of good cards, stuff like that), just like Shadows over Camelot.
Sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
 
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Will Shaw
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Dungeon Run is a little like this, though it’s not a hidden traitor as such. Players need to co-operate to get through the dungeon to the final boss. Once the boss has been eliminated and the treasure obtained then it’s everyone for themselves. The winner is the one who gets out of the dungeon alive with the treasure.
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Matt D
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ghost whistler wrote:
Would a Dungeon crawl style game with a traitor element be viable?

Or do two great tastes not a great taste together make?


Came here to make the same comments as others - there are a number of popularly known and well regarded games that use this theme and mechanic combination.

So the answer to your stated question is yes, and the answer to your implied question is "it's been done before so it's not revolutionary but if yours is good it will find a market".
 
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Gláucio Reis
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If I recall correctly, The Legend of Drizzt has a traitor scenario.
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Jordan Ackerman
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I wouldn't enjoy it.

I do think the traitor mechanic is interesting, but I wouldn't want it to be part of a dungeon crawl. However, to me a dungeon crawl is only fun played as a campaign.

For one-off dungeon crawl quests, a traitor mechanism could work well for those who would want to play that experience.
 
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Micheal Keane
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The idea I've been playing around with has the party adventuring to retrieve some artifact and then bringing it back to town. Gunning for a lighter shorter BSG type experience.

The traitor's win condition still requires them to bring the artifact back so they'll have to help the team pass challenges; they just need to make sure all the other players are incapacitated when they do finally return.

I'm also planning for hidden objectives for the other players (Come back w/certain amount of treasure, no wounds, artifact in your possession, etc, etc) in order for them to win.
 
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Damn Dirty Ape!
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Posthuman might qualify. Outdoors, Post-apoc theme, but players have stats, fight monsters, and get loot. A player can choose to become a mutant, hunting down other players I think, but I never got that involved with it.
 
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Chris B
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Daemonibus- has a traitor mechanic(and a way to switch back)
 
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John M
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If I know that there is a traitor in the group, the amount of help offered to others would be severely diminished. Normally, dungeon crawls are about the team working together to take out a threat. If someone will be a traitor, no heals, no support, just in case. Be real easy to turn on someone while they are disadvantaged in a fight as well to ensure I make it out of the dungeon.
 
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Martin Larouche
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L3g10n wrote:
Technically, Betrayal at Baldur's Gate (and its predecessor set in a certain house on the hill) is exactly that - a dungeon crawler with traitor mechanisms.


And Mansion of Madness 2. When you go insane, you might go do weird stuff, like making sure the rest of the group fails.
 
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Jo Bartok
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C Dylan wrote:
Posthuman might qualify. Outdoors, Post-apoc theme, but players have stats, fight monsters, and get loot. A player can choose to become a mutant, hunting down other players I think, but I never got that involved with it.


Sadly it doesn't really... I wished it had :/.
 
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ghost whistler
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a_esbech wrote:
ghost whistler wrote:
Would a Dungeon crawl style game with a traitor element be viable?

Or do two great tastes not a great taste together make?


I think the answer is yes. On both accounts. It all comes down to how much work you're willing to put in.

I think the traitor mechanic here is the most important. How do you want to achieve that? I'm not that familiar with that mechanic, but do you want something along the lines of Dead of Winter where everyone has a secret objective that makes some of the (seemingly) suboptimal decisions seem suspicious? Do you want a hidden role game where players already know that there is one or more traitor(s), like Bang?

Basically, why would a player want to betray the others in order to win? How can said traitor be fought and how can he hide?
I wouldn't say Bang is a game with a traitor - we know there are roles and they work in conflict. But that's not the same as traitor implies a, likely hidden, member of the group pretending to work with, but secretly against.
 
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Andreas Esbech
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ghost whistler wrote:
a_esbech wrote:
ghost whistler wrote:
Would a Dungeon crawl style game with a traitor element be viable?

Or do two great tastes not a great taste together make?


I think the answer is yes. On both accounts. It all comes down to how much work you're willing to put in.

I think the traitor mechanic here is the most important. How do you want to achieve that? I'm not that familiar with that mechanic, but do you want something along the lines of Dead of Winter where everyone has a secret objective that makes some of the (seemingly) suboptimal decisions seem suspicious? Do you want a hidden role game where players already know that there is one or more traitor(s), like Bang?

Basically, why would a player want to betray the others in order to win? How can said traitor be fought and how can he hide?
I wouldn't say Bang is a game with a traitor - we know there are roles and they work in conflict. But that's not the same as traitor implies a, likely hidden, member of the group pretending to work with, but secretly against.


That's true, but it is one way to create conflict between players. Hidden roles could just establish an objective for a team. Maybe a better example would be Dark Moon (and I assume Battlestar Galactica) where everyone is working toward a main goal except for a team of infiltrators. The "good guys" have a lot of power and could easily remove a "bad guy" from the game if they had full knowledge. So by creating that difference of power you entice the "bad guys" to stay hidden and only work against the team in an inconspicuous way. My idea was the same with Bang, but with the Sheriff's dilemma of who's the renegade and who's the deputy.

It was just examples to use for my first question: Why would a player want to betray the others? Usually the players have to be told that they have a different goal than the rest, sometimes that person and goal is hidden, e.g. Dead of Winter, or only the goal is hidden, e.g. Betrayal.
 
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James Campbell
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ghost whistler wrote:
Would a Dungeon crawl style game with a traitor element be viable?

Or do two great tastes not a great taste together make?


Absolutely viable assuming it's done well. Of course, expect to be a little unbalanced when dealing with hidden goals but that seems to be a common issue.

In addition to those mentioned above I've been developing one for the past few years and am going back to Kickstarter with it next month!
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/190047/black-boarding-pa...
 
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Bryan Kline
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Reading through the comments, it seems to me here that there are two ways you could do a traitor for this type of game.

The first is the Betrayal model, where the game starts off as cooperative, but halfway through the game, one player is somehow chosen and becomes the traitor. This transfer of one player to a new allegiance is very public and might involve a very obvious shift in game mechanics. This player might become a Big Bad Evil Guy (or take control of one), and has the motivation and power to accomplish their alternate goal.

The second is a hidden-role model. Each player gets a 'good guy' or 'bad guy' card, which could specify different victory conditions. Typically, the 'bad' guy(s) would be trying to sabotage the efforts of the rest of the party, but subtly so that they aren't discovered and nullified. (Or, if they are discovered, at least they can delay that until their victory is already assured. Saboteur works this way.) Mechanically, this might involve ways for players to play cards in such a way that the other players do not know who is playing them. (The Resistance comes to mind.)

Maybe each player is forced to play a 'monster does something' card each turn, but only the worst card counts. So the 'good' players play 'monster is napping' cards, while the 'bad' player plays a 'monster is hungry and eats nearest player' card. The latter card takes priority. The cards are played face down, shuffled together, then revealed, so nobody knows who played what. This could also be tuned so occasionally a good player must play a bad card because they had no good ones in hand, forcing the other players to question the allegiance of that player. (Always fun trying to explain your way out of that one.
 
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Jo Bartok
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I don't think there is need to repeat what Betrayal does. It does it great and is a nice game.

However that's really different from a real traitor.

As for group checks... check Battlestar Galactica, that's the way I'd go, but I'd not do it for monster movement. Either monster movement as that is far too slow. But it could be done for party-checks against doors, traps, secret passages, riddles, levers, etc.
 
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