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Twilight Imperium (Fourth Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Embers of Muat ... need a up? rss

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Badoux Jerome
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Hi,

Never played them but everytime I look at their kit I tell to myself : "I was right last time I check... they sucks".
Played once with one Muat at the table.... never felt fighten.

Yes they have a WS at the starts... but if they try to go for you super early the risk is huge... if they happen to lose their WS at the beginning the game is over for them. And they don't have much to support that war sun early.

And more the game goes less risky it becomes for them to go with their WS but easier it will be for other players to deal with it.

So :

- Pretty poor early fleet
- with move of 1 you see the warsun comming miles away (just don't let them get warfare and you will be fine.)
- Nothing to scale up to late game...
- no alternative gameplay.


Honnestly they really looks to me weak from all angles....

What do you think?
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Nick Naz
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https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1905804/muatt-early-turns

I agree, as a race they are bad, however your neighbors seem to have more of a role in how many VPs you accomplish in a given game than your race does.
 
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Badoux Jerome
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yes of course... but I always consider that everyone plays at the same lvl... so the difference in the races are important (if you don't know your opponent assume he is as good or better then you)

I am trying to think of something to improve embers of muat to give them a better chance, more gameplay while keeping the same flavour to it.
 
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Andre Oliveira
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Agone07 wrote:
Yes they have a WS at the starts... but if they try to go for you super early the risk is huge... if they happen to lose their WS at the beginning the game is over for them. And they don't have much to support that war sun early.

And more the game goes less risky it becomes for them to go with their WS but easier it will be for other players to deal with it.

So :

- Pretty poor early fleet
- with move of 1 you see the warsun comming miles away (just don't let them get warfare and you will be fine.)
- Nothing to scale up to late game...
- no alternative gameplay.


Honnestly they really looks to me weak from all angles....

What do you think?


Warsuns with -2 cost and +1 movement are exactly late game material.
But their early game is (still) weak indeed.


Agone07 wrote:
yes of course... but I always consider that everyone plays at the same lvl... so the difference in the races are important (if you don't know your opponent assume he is as good or better then you)

I am trying to think of something to improve embers of muat to give them a better chance, more gameplay while keeping the same flavour to it.

Here some ideas:

1 Starting with an additional Carrier, Dreadnaught or Flagship would fix their early game - the last 2 would make that duranium armor even more tasty.
2 Magmus Reactor should give that TG if you just activate that system instead of when producing (after all it does compete with Duranium armor).
3 A crazy way to go is having their flagship with production 1.
4 Planet Muuat should have red tech - opening interesting tech route possibilities.
5 Lastly 2 PDS would be nice at their home to make it safer to expand.


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Alex Almond
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From my last game, everything was given to Muat, they started with leader (helps with their poor start), and later sold their warsun tech to somebody who couldn't use it and gained a large amount of TG which they used to gain another WS, and the VP's were all easy scorers for them, and they still couldn't win.

They were extremely strong in one system where they had both W/S besides that they didn't have anything really left to give. That's without them losing a W/S and I've noticed a few methods in game to bypass fighter screen to pop them off.

Their main problem is they don't really have a faction ability, the supernova stuff is likely useless, and the units for tokens is such a cripplingly poor trade even though it doesn't lock you it's not worth it, especially as you can't gen GF with it.

Trouble is they are not really the sort of race you want to give production bonus to, they are more of a bombastic race.

I was thinking along the lines of:
1 Gain an extra fighter in any system they own when placing ships gained from a token, it would still be an expensive way to do this but makes it a bit more viable.
2 Spend a TG to treat your flagship as if it was a warsun outside of space combat, it may actually be used then for bombard and you can essentially upgrade it's speed to 3.
3 Instead of destroying a warsun, you may replace it with any cheaper ship and x fighters & Gf's (4 of each?). - So at least you're not out of the game if you lose your w/s early and makes certain direct counters a bit less crippling. - I was thinking of Star trek first contact




 
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Sean D.
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Anecdotal evidence here. In our last 2 games the Muat won and placed 2nd. It all depends on how their neighbors react to them - in both those games the neighbors were occupied in other skirmishes or allied with the Muat so they were able to do well.
 
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Miguel Batista
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Agone07 wrote:
Hi,

Never played them but everytime I look at their kit I tell to myself : "I was right last time I check... they sucks".
Played once with one Muat at the table.... never felt fighten.

Yes they have a WS at the starts... but if they try to go for you super early the risk is huge... if they happen to lose their WS at the beginning the game is over for them. And they don't have much to support that war sun early.

And more the game goes less risky it becomes for them to go with their WS but easier it will be for other players to deal with it.

So :

- Pretty poor early fleet
- with move of 1 you see the warsun comming miles away (just don't let them get warfare and you will be fine.)
- Nothing to scale up to late game...
- no alternative gameplay.


Honnestly they really looks to me weak from all angles....

What do you think?


Also, their abilities do not synergize.
I think that their racial ability of spending a strat token to gain a destroyer or a couple of fighters is awful. First of all, it costs an action. If you could build and then move it would be different. Second, one strat token = one trade good? If I have Sarween tools I am actually paying a strat token for zero gain...

Also their faction tech that gives you 1 TG when a unit uses production in a system containing a War Sun or adjacent to a supernova and allows you to move into a supernova is kind of useless. 2 red for that tech... 2 RED!!!! It doesn't even allow you to skip Magen defence grid which is useless. And the tech is just "Meh..."



Best strategy with them is to grab leadership as much as possible and try to get War Suns 2 asap.

Simple change to make them better:
Have their racial ability be "spend one strategy token. You may place a destroyer or two fighters for free per war sun in a system as if they used production"

Same for their flagship except you can place a cruiser. Their flagship should have movement 2.

And their racial tech should be "gain 1 TG for each unit that uses production on a system that has a war sun or is adjacent to a supernova"

This way, their faction ability and their faction tech would synergise quite well allowing you to place both war suns in a system and gain 2 TG plus 4 fighters or 2 destroyers for free. Heck, add the flagship to that fleet and you can get an extra TG and a cruiser for that single strategy token. That would be worth it at least.

This ability should not cost an action (acting like a weaker version of warfare secondary) and would allow much needed mobility for the Muaat and make them quite a decent and elegant race.
 
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Steve Williams
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In general, the Muaat are fine. They're not powerful, but they are absolutely not weak. Having all your eggs in one basket at the start of the game is a drawback and you need to be careful. Starting with a slow Warsun does not make you an aggressive race, and TI isn't a war game. The Muaat are more like a snowball that grows into an avalanche. Fragile and slow to build up speed, but if they roll down the right course they can be huge.

mAIOR wrote:
I think that their racial ability of spending a strat token to gain a destroyer or a couple of fighters is awful. First of all, it costs an action.


Spending an Action is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. You don't use it explicitly to generate forces, generating forces is just a pleasant upside to stalling.

Stalling lets you:

∙ Drastically increase the odds a desired Strategy Card gets activated at a time that you can take full advantage of its secondary.
∙ Delay when your own strategy card is activated to reduce the number of opponents that can take advantage of it.
∙ Wait until one or more players have passed before attacking them.
∙ See what systems other players activate and where they commit their forces before you act.
∙ Make a game winning play once all other players have passed so no one can stop you.
∙ See more information in general to make the best possible decision.

It's not an ability you use every turn (because it's expensive), and you have to plan for it, but it can be game-winningly powerful.

It is a little worse in TI4 than it was in TI3, since in TI3 you could also use the ability at a Space Dock and not just your Warsuns. If Muaat are felt to be weak, restoring the ability to its previous version is the first (and likely only) change I would make.
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Andre Oliveira
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IncrediSteve wrote:


Stalling lets you:

1 Drastically increase the odds a desired Strategy Card gets activated at a time that you can take full advantage of its secondary.
2 Delay when your own strategy card is activated to reduce the number of opponents that can take advantage of it.
3 Wait until one or more players have passed before attacking them.
4 See what systems other players activate and where they commit their forces before you act.
5 Make a game winning play once all other players have passed so no one can stop you.
6 See more information in general to make the best possible decision.

1 - But you are spending command tokens for it
2 - Indeed
3 - Great as well
4, 5 and 6 - Stalling by definition

---

Personally I think that Magmus Reactor and their Flagship should be buffed.
 
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Nick Naz
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I firmly believe they had the Muatt flagship and Warsuns as having PRODUCTION 1 with some limitations at one point in play testing but it was deemed too powerful. It just feels like that would be how all their abilities would synergize. I don't agree however that they need to be changed at all. There are 17 races for a reason. It would be boring if they were all similar power levels, there will always be "weaker" races out of the 17 no matter how much you tweak them.
 
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Miguel Batista
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IncrediSteve wrote:
In general, the Muaat are fine. They're not powerful, but they are absolutely not weak. Having all your eggs in one basket at the start of the game is a drawback and you need to be careful. Starting with a slow Warsun does not make you an aggressive race, and TI isn't a war game. The Muaat are more like a snowball that grows into an avalanche. Fragile and slow to build up speed, but if they roll down the right course they can be huge.

mAIOR wrote:
I think that their racial ability of spending a strat token to gain a destroyer or a couple of fighters is awful. First of all, it costs an action.


Spending an Action is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. You don't use it explicitly to generate forces, generating forces is just a pleasant upside to stalling.

Stalling lets you:

∙ Drastically increase the odds a desired Strategy Card gets activated at a time that you can take full advantage of its secondary.
∙ Delay when your own strategy card is activated to reduce the number of opponents that can take advantage of it.
∙ Wait until one or more players have passed before attacking them.
∙ See what systems other players activate and where they commit their forces before you act.
∙ Make a game winning play once all other players have passed so no one can stop you.
∙ See more information in general to make the best possible decision.

It's not an ability you use every turn (because it's expensive), and you have to plan for it, but it can be game-winningly powerful.

It is a little worse in TI4 than it was in TI3, since in TI3 you could also use the ability at a Space Dock and not just your Warsuns. If Muaat are felt to be weak, restoring the ability to its previous version is the first (and likely only) change I would make.




Maybe that should be the first thing to try (though I still thing their flagship could use 2 movement points) but not sure it is worth a strat token. The stalling is best in the beginning (where you do need to stall since you only have one fleet) but that is when the command tokens are needed the most. Sure some of those points are great (stalling is good I agree) but it is too much of a cost sometimes. I mean, you start the game with 2 CC in the strat pool. You will need to activate tech and warfare if you weren't able to pick them which probably means you need to grab leadership or not have enough strat tokens to stall. And that also means that you need to wait for people to play those other cards which might mean that you have to stall to take full advantage of them which might mean that you will lack the CC to use them.

It is too expensive imho. Late game when you have a lot of CC you also have other options to stall and you should have more fleets too which allows you to move. I would rather conduct a suicide mission with one destroyer than to use a strat token to stall.
 
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Dustin Shunta
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Norton Shores
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Muatt probably have one of the most powerful racial promissory notes in the game.

I have yet to see it leveraged to its full effect, but I suspect that it can be done extremely effectively.
 
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Peter Walsh
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Stalling is one of the most powerful abilities of the game at any time, because it allows you to create a situation where you can score an objective with more certainty. The TI3 Yssaril ability was one of the main reasons why that faction was so formidable since they could wait until everyone else had passed and move without possibility of counter play. In TI4 the ability to stall is more carefully limited. The best way to stall is with a component action. Next is what Muatt or Sol can do, which is spend a CC from strategy to place units. While it costs more than a component action it can be planned for and does not come without some compensation for the cost. But the value of paying a CC for a stall is not just the value of the units gained - the game can turn on a well played stall.
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Miguel Batista
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Pete Walsh wrote:
Stalling is one of the most powerful abilities of the game at any time, because it allows you to create a situation where you can score an objective with more certainty. The TI3 Yssaril ability was one of the main reasons why that faction was so formidable since they could wait until everyone else had passed and move without possibility of counter play. In TI4 the ability to stall is more carefully limited. The best way to stall is with a component action. Next is what Muatt or Sol can do, which is spend a CC from strategy to place units. While it costs more than a component action it can be planned for and does not come without some compensation for the cost. But the value of paying a CC for a stall is not just the value of the units gained - the game can turn on a well played stall.


I agree with that but I think it is at the expense of Muaat being weaker overall. If you could synergize it with the faction tech it would be better.
 
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