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Subject: Jesus and Mickey Mouse help sink Moore rss

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Andre
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/30/alabama-elec...

Laughs, this;

State officials stressed ahead of the election that voters had to write-in the name of a living person in order for the vote to be tallied. That did not stop votes for Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse, Snoopy, SpongeBob SquarePants, Ronald Reagan, Jesus and “UR Mom”. There was also a vote for Sassy, the name of the horse Moore rode to the polls.

At least one person voted by write-in for Leigh Corfman, one of the women who raised an allegation against Moore, who is 70, about behaviour said to have taken place when he was in his 30s.
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But the important question is "How many thousand votes did Harambe get?"

Also interesting how this is used to dogpile on Moore, when the obvious takeaway is the Democrat winner has no real mandate from the electorate. They were disgusted with Moore, but they didn't want a Democrat either, so they made protest votes. Behold, a well-functioning democracy!
 
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Kiraboshi wrote:
But the important question is "How many thousand votes did Harambe get?"

Also interesting how this is used to dogpile on Moore, when the obvious takeaway is the Democrat winner has no real mandate from the electorate. They were disgusted with Moore, but they didn't want a Democrat either, so they made protest votes. Behold, a well-functioning democracy!


Does President Trump have a mandate?
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rinelk wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
But the important question is "How many thousand votes did Harambe get?"

Also interesting how this is used to dogpile on Moore, when the obvious takeaway is the Democrat winner has no real mandate from the electorate. They were disgusted with Moore, but they didn't want a Democrat either, so they made protest votes. Behold, a well-functioning democracy!


Does President Trump have a mandate?

No, and I'm just using the mainstream terminology. I don't actually believe in "mandates."
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Andre
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Kiraboshi wrote:
But the important question is "How many thousand votes did Harambe get?"

Also interesting how this is used to dogpile on Moore, when the obvious takeaway is the Democrat winner has no real mandate from the electorate. They were disgusted with Moore, but they didn't want a Democrat either, so they made protest votes. Behold, a well-functioning democracy!


I'm not really disputing the fact that Jones does not really have a "mandate", he simply won the election. But I find it interesting (comical) that many decided to throw away their vote, with references to cartoon characters, and biblical figures. Yes democracy worked here!

Personally, I don't believe any candidate has a "mandate" from the voters, unless it's a major landslide. Trump is president, but he had no mandate, in fact, he lost the popular vote. Pubs who claim he speaks for what Americans want, would be well advised to remember that less than half of voting Americans, wanted him. FOX News and other conservative outlets always seem to forget that quaint fact.
 
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Andre
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Kiraboshi wrote:
But the important question is "How many thousand votes did Harambe get?"

Also interesting how this is used to dogpile on Moore, when the obvious takeaway is the Democrat winner has no real mandate from the electorate. They were disgusted with Moore, but they didn't want a Democrat either, so they made protest votes. Behold, a well-functioning democracy!


And I am not sure why you consider the article to be 'dogpiling' on Moore, it is simply relating facts about who the "other" votes were for. The use of that word makes me think you are somehow upset with the results, or the media coverage of the election?
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Interesting how the two responses I got were both "But Trump!" when I hate Trump and this has nothing to do with Trump, who only grudgingly supported Moore in the first place.

The lack of a mandate, and the criticisms of "mandate" do show real flaws in the democratic process by undermining the concept of political representation.
 
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Andre
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Kiraboshi wrote:
Interesting how the two responses I got were both "But Trump!" when I hate Trump and this has nothing to do with Trump, who only grudgingly supported Moore in the first place.

The lack of a mandate, and the criticisms of "mandate" do show real flaws in the democratic process by undermining the concept of political representation.


Not sure where you seem to take it that I am either critical of mandates or the lack thereof.

Laughs, and it is difficult not to speak about "mandates" without speaking of Trump. He seems to think he's had one for over a year now. Or at least, the press that favors him seems to think so. Mandate is often a word someone uses, when they win an election. But most election wins can hardly be considered to be a mandate. Reagan v Mondale was a mandate. Trump v Clinton was not.
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Donald
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Kiraboshi wrote:

The lack of a mandate, and the criticisms of "mandate" do show real flaws in the democratic process by undermining the concept of political representation.

How should it work? If the winning candidate doesn't get X percentage of the vote, what? New election? Vacancy not filled? Post filled by political appointment? What should the percentage for a mandate be?

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Donald wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:

The lack of a mandate, and the criticisms of "mandate" do show real flaws in the democratic process by undermining the concept of political representation.

How should it work? If the winning candidate doesn't get X percentage of the vote, what? New election? Vacancy not filled? Post filled by political appointment? What should the percentage for a mandate be?


office abolished and 100% respectively
(Which is to say, I oppose democracy — but there's more than a thread's worth of criticisms to be meted out against it. I just meant to point out that an abundance of protest votes hardly helps its case.)
 
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Kiraboshi wrote:

(Which is to say, I oppose democracy — but there's more than a thread's worth of criticisms to be meted out against it. I just meant to point out that an abundance of protest votes hardly helps its case.)


And your preferred system of governance/civilization is......



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Donald wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:

(Which is to say, I oppose democracy — but there's more than a thread's worth of criticisms to be meted out against it. I just meant to point out that an abundance of protest votes hardly helps its case.)


And your preferred system of governance/civilization is......

private property society / anarchism
 
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Michael Pustilnik
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Kiraboshi wrote:
But the important question is "How many thousand votes did Harambe get?"

Also interesting how this is used to dogpile on Moore, when the obvious takeaway is the Democrat winner has no real mandate from the electorate. They were disgusted with Moore, but they didn't want a Democrat either, so they made protest votes. Behold, a well-functioning democracy!


Yes, it was a narrow victory. But any Democratic victory at all is remarkable considering how republican Alabama is.

This is, in fact, an example of a well-functioning democracy. The better candidate won. Jones won because of the moral unfitness of his opponent, because of general disgust for the Trump administration, and because Jones is a strong candidate. He is an outstanding, experienced, centrist, with a strong record of fighting racism.
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Andre
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Kiraboshi wrote:
Donald wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:

(Which is to say, I oppose democracy — but there's more than a thread's worth of criticisms to be meted out against it. I just meant to point out that an abundance of protest votes hardly helps its case.)


And your preferred system of governance/civilization is......

private property society / anarchism


Not sure how the two you have mentioned jibe. In anarchy, I can simply claim your property is mine, shoot you, and case closed. How does anarchy define personal property? By posession only?

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Kelsey Rinella
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Kiraboshi wrote:
Interesting how the two responses I got were both "But Trump!" when I hate Trump and this has nothing to do with Trump, who only grudgingly supported Moore in the first place.

The lack of a mandate, and the criticisms of "mandate" do show real flaws in the democratic process by undermining the concept of political representation.


In modern democracies, "mandate" is sort of a silly term. The idea, I assume, used to be that we could infer something about the preferences of a majority of the voters for particular policies based on who was elected. But polls are more frequent and specific, so they do a better job of monitoring those preferences these days. People still appeal to the concept of a mandate when explaining why they're pursuing their policies despite widespread opposition (which, as Andre has noted, is particularly highlighted by our current president, so he's a good test case to see how you're using these concepts), but I have the impression that they generally don't believe in mandates as a real thing, or even a valuable abstraction for determining voter preferences. More realistically, elections reveal polling errors, but for most political decisions, polls are far more diagnostic than elections.

So, yeah, if mandates were crucial signals of voter preferences and they sucked, that would be a problem for representative government. But our current problem isn't that the will of the voters is too hard to discern, it's that the consequences of various kinds of corruption of the representative process are too easy to predict. So the party which benefits from each one will not just weaken its resistance to that kind of corruption, they'll actively pursue policies to make it more prevalent. One of the cool things about democracy is that it doesn't take a very large group of people who are committed to reducing corruption to swing reasonably close elections. If 10% of political partisans are willing to vote against representatives whose values they support but whose corruption they oppose, and the press is free and fair enough that they will tend to learn of that corruption, that provides a strong incentive for elected representatives to do a decent job of representing the voters.
 
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Kiraboshi wrote:
Interesting how the two responses I got were both "But Trump!" when I hate Trump and this has nothing to do with Trump, who only grudgingly supported Moore in the first place.

The lack of a mandate, and the criticisms of "mandate" do show real flaws in the democratic process by undermining the concept of political representation.


Nice revisionist history. He seems pretty enthusiastic to me.



http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/04/politics/trump-moore-endorseme...

The mandate thing is the last refugee of whiners. It doesn't matter if Trump has a mandate, whatever the fuck that means, because he's now President. Similarly, Jones is in office until 2020 at least, perhaps putting the Senate in for a ride in 2018.

You can certainly criticize the electoral college as not representing democracy, but I don't know why anyone would bother bringing up a mandate. Moreover, it makes zero sense to bring up a mandate with respect to the Alabama senate race, which doesn't involve the same issues with the popular vote discrepancies that arose with Trump.


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abadolato01 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
Donald wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:

(Which is to say, I oppose democracy — but there's more than a thread's worth of criticisms to be meted out against it. I just meant to point out that an abundance of protest votes hardly helps its case.)


And your preferred system of governance/civilization is......

private property society / anarchism


Not sure how the two you have mentioned jibe. In anarchy, I can simply claim your property is mine, shoot you, and case closed. How does anarchy define personal property? By posession only?

Anarchism doesn't mean "no laws" or "no authority" it means no State.
 
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Sue_G wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
Interesting how the two responses I got were both "But Trump!" when I hate Trump and this has nothing to do with Trump, who only grudgingly supported Moore in the first place.

The lack of a mandate, and the criticisms of "mandate" do show real flaws in the democratic process by undermining the concept of political representation.


Nice revisionist history. He seems pretty enthusiastic to me.

Trump supported Moore's primary opponent and only endorsed Moore when it was him or a Democrat. I mean "Vote for this douche so we don't lose the Senate!" doesn't exactly turn out the vote.
 
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Andre
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Kiraboshi wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
Donald wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:

(Which is to say, I oppose democracy — but there's more than a thread's worth of criticisms to be meted out against it. I just meant to point out that an abundance of protest votes hardly helps its case.)


And your preferred system of governance/civilization is......

private property society / anarchism


Not sure how the two you have mentioned jibe. In anarchy, I can simply claim your property is mine, shoot you, and case closed. How does anarchy define personal property? By posession only?

Anarchism doesn't mean "no laws" or "no authority" it means no State.


With no State, who makes the laws in your world, and who, if anyone, holds the authority? I am very curious about your concept of anarchy. Who, if anyone, in your world, prevents me from doing exactly what I outlined, with respect to your property?
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MikePustilnik wrote:
This is, in fact, an example of a well-functioning democracy.

So the fact that a candidate got in who doesn't at all reflect the views of a majority of Alabamians is a point in favor of democracy as a form of government? The fact that they only approval the voters indicated was of the form "Well, he's not as bad as that other guy?"


MikePustilnik wrote:
The better candidate won. Jones won because of the moral unfitness of his opponent, because of general disgust for the Trump administration, and because Jones is a strong candidate. He is an outstanding, experienced, centrist, with a strong record of fighting racism.

"Experience" is a good thing in most fields, but in politics it means "swamp creature." "Centrist" means "no principles," "opportunistic" and "not bothered by self-contradiction (thus illogical)."
 
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Kiraboshi wrote:
MikePustilnik wrote:
This is, in fact, an example of a well-functioning democracy.

So the fact that a candidate got in who doesn't at all reflect the views of a majority of Alabamians is a point in favor of democracy as a form of government? The fact that they only approval the voters indicated was of the form "Well, he's not as bad as that other guy?"


MikePustilnik wrote:
The better candidate won. Jones won because of the moral unfitness of his opponent, because of general disgust for the Trump administration, and because Jones is a strong candidate. He is an outstanding, experienced, centrist, with a strong record of fighting racism.

"Experience" is a good thing in most fields, but in politics it means "swamp creature." "Centrist" means "no principles," "opportunistic" and "not bothered by self-contradiction (thus illogical)."


So in your opinion, he needed to get more than 50% of the vote? That doesn't even make sense either, because a bunch of Alabamians didn't even go and vote. I don't think the vote says anything at all about which of the candidate's views the majority agreed with. Even if there was a 100% voter turnout and one candidate got a majority, I doubt we could say whether that same number agreed with each view of the candidate.
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abadolato01 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
Donald wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:

(Which is to say, I oppose democracy — but there's more than a thread's worth of criticisms to be meted out against it. I just meant to point out that an abundance of protest votes hardly helps its case.)


And your preferred system of governance/civilization is......

private property society / anarchism


Not sure how the two you have mentioned jibe. In anarchy, I can simply claim your property is mine, shoot you, and case closed. How does anarchy define personal property? By posession only?

Anarchism doesn't mean "no laws" or "no authority" it means no State.


With no State, who makes the laws in your world, and who, if anyone, holds the authority? I am very curious about your concept of anarchy. Who, if anyone, in your world, prevents me from doing exactly what I outlined, with respect to your property?

Nobody is needed to "make laws." All the good laws are already to be found in common law, that is the law that evolved over time from the practice of private judges. I'm sure legal practice would continue to evolve to some extent, but there's no real need for fundamentally "new" laws.

As for who stops criminals: armed law-abiding people, volunteer neighborhood watchmen, paid private police, insurance companies (in order not to have to pay out claims for stolen property), officers of the court
 
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Kiraboshi wrote:

"Experience" is a good thing in most fields, but in politics it means "swamp creature." "Centrist" means "no principles," "opportunistic" and "not bothered by self-contradiction (thus illogical)."


My word, you are full of shit, aren't you?
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wifwendell wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:

"Experience" is a good thing in most fields, but in politics it means "swamp creature." "Centrist" means "no principles," "opportunistic" and "not bothered by self-contradiction (thus illogical)."


My word, you are full of shit, aren't you?

You sure do like to come along behind me just to hurl insults, don't you? This is becoming a pattern across several threads. "You're a nutter." "You're full of shit" You sure do have a burr in your butt.
 
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Kiraboshi wrote:
Donald wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:

(Which is to say, I oppose democracy — but there's more than a thread's worth of criticisms to be meted out against it. I just meant to point out that an abundance of protest votes hardly helps its case.)


And your preferred system of governance/civilization is......

private property society / anarchism


Damn. My eyes rolled so hard I got flipped out of my chair.

Another internet anarchist who can explain why his paradise won't be Somalia on steroids. Will it be the power of sweet reason? Once everyone understands how logical and necessary anarchy and private property are, no one will ever be naughty again, I'm guessing.
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