Brian M
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We've got one full spellcaster in our team of four, and it continually seems like she's getting the short end of the straw. Wondering if we are doing anything wrong here.

Noticing:

1) Spells aren't really that exciting; a normal starting combat spell is stat +2d4, which is no better than many good weapons, but can't be kept in hand and continually reused. (This is true of all PFACG games)

2) A LOT of the monsters have resistances to spells. Poison is basically useless; almost EVERYTHING resists it.

3) There's not a lot for upgraded spells. We're up to quest 3 and very few upgraded combat spells have been added. Seems like there are lots of cool new weapons and armor, but very little for spells.

4) You don't get many spells out of the locations. 3 spells among all the locations is GOOD, where as you usually get at least half a dozen weapons, and are practically mobbed with allies.

5) Most of the loot are weapons and armor. No use for a spellcaster. (There is one ring that's very cool).

Thoughts on this? Stuff we're missing?
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Scott Rogganbuck
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In the beginning, this particular adventure path is incredibly tough on the spellcasters. For us, we encountered a lot of demon hordes and killer trees, which blast people for d4 damage before you act. Harsh for someone with not much armor. The spells do get much better as you go.

Poison weapons seemed like a liability to us, as well.
 
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Brian M
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Finklestein wrote:
The spells do get much better as you go.

Like I said, we're into adventure 3 and the cast still mostly has spells from the base set.
 
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Andrew Warner
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StormKnight wrote:
We've got one full spellcaster in our team of four, and it continually seems like she's getting the short end of the straw. Wondering if we are doing anything wrong here.


Which character in particular?

StormKnight wrote:
1) Spells aren't really that exciting; a normal starting combat spell is stat +2d4, which is no better than many good weapons, but can't be kept in hand and continually reused. (This is true of all PFACG games)


The big advantage basic spells have over basic weapons is two things: First, they have the Magic trait. Many monsters require it in order to be defeated. I don't think any basic weapon has the Magic trait. Second, there is a chance you will recharge them. Spells typically have a flatter output (i.e. no choice of revealing vs. discarding for an extra die) but they can be recharged while a weapon is discarded.

StormKnight wrote:
2) A LOT of the monsters have resistances to spells. Poison is basically useless; almost EVERYTHING resists it.


Poison is definitely the weakest of the traits. But keep in mind, some monsters require a certain trait to be defeated. Some require Magic, others might require Fire. Spells are the easiest way to reliable have those needed traits.

StormKnight wrote:
3) There's not a lot for upgraded spells. We're up to quest 3 and very few upgraded combat spells have been added. Seems like there are lots of cool new weapons and armor, but very little for spells.


Fiery Glare is an upgrade in the B deck because it lets you just banish a card you would have failed at acquiring anyway and explore again. In deck 1, you can get Scorching Ray (2d6 vs 2d4) and Life Drain (still 2d4 but also heals you 1 card). Deck 2 does lack any great combat spell upgrades. Dismissal is there and gives you 2d8, but only works against Outsiders. But deck 3 has some good ones: Ice Strike is 3d6. Create Spiked Pit is 2d6 but also allows you to evade. Hellmouth Lash is 2d6+1 and gives you some flexibility for traits to add. In later decks, things can just get crazy for some spells. Elemental Bombardment in deck 5 is 1d6+1 for each Mythic Charge you have, which will typically be 5. So 5d6+5.

StormKnight wrote:
4) You don't get many spells out of the locations. 3 spells among all the locations is GOOD, where as you usually get at least half a dozen weapons, and are practically mobbed with allies.


I'll agree with you here. Spells are often the most difficult things to get out of a location. You are in adventure 3, so you should be starting to remove the boons (and banes) with the Basic traits now. Which means you will see better spells when you do manage to encounter them. You have to be prepared to throw resources at the cards you really want.

StormKnight wrote:
5) Most of the loot are weapons and armor. No use for a spellcaster. (There is one ring that's very cool).


There is a loot spell in deck 4. While it isn't a combat defining spell, it is awesome.

Spell's generally offer flexibility too. While you can take only combat defining spells, there are lots of other things spells can do: scout locations, add to checks, reduce difficulties, move characters around. Weapons are nowhere near as flexible.
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Jon Ryan
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Enora has been a monster for me in a party of her, Harsk, and Kyra. Just got to AD4, but this has been the case for me through mid-AD2. Can’t remember when she made the switch from weaklimg to powerhouse, but her spell healing power and 8 spells total mean she almost always has a decent spell option. A big help too is the actual Arcane bonuses, which I think are +7 or 8 now for each spell.
 
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M Edwards
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From memory I did find this set punishing for casters, but it was mostly because of the possibility of Arboreal Blights or Demonic Hordes wrecking their hands before they even had their turn.
 
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Robert Ahearne
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The pointlessness of Poison is thematic. The main point of the entire campaign is to fight demons from the Abyss, and demons are immune to poison (this is standard in the RPG, which is the source material). Also any Undead that happen to be in the mix are immune to Poison (again, standard in the RPG).

Electricity isn't much better (demons are immune).
 
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Dan
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I’d have to agree that spell casters are a huge gamble and ultimately a waste of time. In addition to their spells being unusable approximately 25% of the time, their six card hand size and lack of armor make them extremely prone to death. They may survive for a while, but eventually they are sure to die (unless you time yourself out whenever they are remotely close to death). Fortunately, there are plenty of other interesting characters to play.
 
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Robert Ahearne
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Zenclix wrote:
I’d have to agree that spell casters are a huge gamble and ultimately a waste of time. In addition to their spells being unusable approximately 25% of the time, their six card hand size and lack of armor make them extremely prone to death. They may survive for a while, but eventually they are sure to die (unless you time yourself out whenever they are remotely close to death). Fortunately, there are plenty of other interesting characters to play.

I disagree strongly.

First, armor is a red herring. Only Enora can't keep armor.

Second, of the characters who keep spells, Imrijka, Seelah, Adowyn, and Crowe are martial fighters who can recharge the occasional spell; Balazar is combat beast who fights using Padrig and Strength; Kyra is an odd duck who stomps Demons and Undead but isn't strong against others (still, with a couple good Combat spells she holds her own).

So -- the weak-in-combat concern applies mainly to Enora, Seoni and Shardra.

Enora is squishy, but with role feats can bypass most immunity by swapping traits.

Seoni needs fewer great Combat spells because she can pull them from her discards.

Both the Arcane casters can take a mythic path that bypasses immunity when they use mythic charges.

SO: the one caster who is really tough to play in Wrath is Shardra. For that reason I haven't played her, but I've heard of others who have successfully.
 
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Brian M
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Just started on deck 4 and Enora finally was able to get rid of a few basic spells. Seriously, 15+ games in most of her spells were still basic! We've really struggled to get spells for her, often avoiding closing any location with spells in it. At least once we even deliberately failed to defeat the villain just to give more time to get some spells.

Regarding some of the specific comments:

Quote:
The big advantage basic spells have over basic weapons is two things: First, they have the Magic trait. Many monsters require it in order to be defeated. I don't think any basic weapon has the Magic trait.

This is an advantage, but you don't meet any monsters that require magic before heroes have had a chance to get a few magic weapons.

Quote:
Second, there is a chance you will recharge them. Spells typically have a flatter output (i.e. no choice of revealing vs. discarding for an extra die) but they can be recharged while a weapon is discarded.

Most weapons are not discarded unless you want to trigger a bonus effect - which we rarely do unless the character has a hand full of weapons and wants to get rid of some anyway.

Quote:
Spells are the easiest way to reliable have those needed traits.

There are weapons with special traits to, and they don't go away when you used them on the first monster you met in the turn!

Quote:
Spell's generally offer flexibility too. While you can take only combat defining spells, there are lots of other things spells can do: scout locations, add to checks, reduce difficulties, move characters around. Weapons are nowhere near as flexible.

But a caster needs to be able to fight, and preferably to handle a few fights in a row (though that damn Demonic Horde could throw up to 4 at you at once!) so you need to keep a good portion of combat spells. And the utility spells just don't tend to be all that great; usually they aren't quite as good as a blessing, and not nearly as flexible. So adding more spells as card feats for utility isn't a great choice; you'd be better off adding more blessing slots!

Quote:
A big help too is the actual Arcane bonuses, which I think are +7 or 8 now for each spell.

I think Crowe is usually getting +11 to his melee bonuses at the moment - and doesn't have to spend any cards to do it!

Quote:
The pointlessness of Poison is thematic.

They really should have either not included the poison spells or at least given them a slight upgrade to make up for it.

Quote:
In addition to their spells being unusable approximately 25% of the time, their six card hand size and lack of armor make them extremely prone to death.

Haven't found this to be much of a problem though. Stray damage hurts, but you should be avoiding losing fights anyway.
 
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StormKnight wrote:
Finklestein wrote:
The spells do get much better as you go.

Like I said, we're into adventure 3 and the cast still mostly has spells from the base set.


Same here. We are on the adventure 3 as well. Our spell caster has 8 spells, and I only have one non-basic attack spell that roll +2d6.
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Brian M
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Just finished Quest 5, and they've added a LOT of good spells recently. Guess they just really balanced around where the good spells are very lopsidedly; nothing good early, and then a lot of awesome stuff at once later.

Also, in the middle of Quest pack 5, we found a level 1 spell Scorching Ray, which is Arcane + 2D6. Its obviously too low power by this point, but we had never previously seen this card; we didn't even see it when we looked through the B and 1 decks wondering if there were any good spells in there early on. We were playing with a used set; I wonder if this spell somehow wound up in the 5 cards? But we'd gone through and counted all the sets to make sure we had the right amount of cards. I'm feeling very confused now!
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Jason Miller
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We got through the first 3 adventures in the base set yesterday. We have played PACG before though this was our first foray into Wrath of the Righteous. I am going to agree with the poster on this one, spellcasters are not worth it. We had to play every scenario twice to beat it.

The second time we played the second quest I lost Kyra thanks to the damn Arboreal Blight trap. She was sitting at another location because she couldn't take another hit and her 3 cure spells were all in the discard pile. The tree smacked her into oblivion.

The second time we played the 3rd quest Kyra's replacement, Shardra, was killed off. A barrier came up that sent a demon against random characters. She was sitting at a closed location passing her turn because she couldn't get her cure spell from her deck. We rolled off and 2 went for her. She was hit around and come her turn couldn't replenish her hand. She died with Cure in hand.

So, yeah, spell casters have been worthless for us. Enora barely escaped death each game by hiding out in closed locations. She would have died had we rolled for her and not Shardra. One or two bad die rolls kills off a caster with their huge hands and no armor whereas a stumble or two with an armored warrior with a 4-card hand can be easily brushed off.

If the spell casters cannot survive searching in locations that have monsters, or even sitting around empty locations thanks to barriers that hit everyone, then we are not going to bring them along anymore. The 30-card blessing timer deck is too short to allow someone to waste turns because another cheap shot from first attacking enemies will kill them.
 
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Brian M
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IIRC, there's an errata that those horrible Arboreal Blights should not be in the initial set of cards and a recommendation to swap them with a barrier from the first quest pack.

There's a ton of errata for the game. Worth looking at.
 
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Robert Ahearne
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Not exactly.

In the FAQ, there is a suggestion as to how to make the B adventures easier, if you want that. It is not a suggestion that everyone should do this. Here's that FAQ

Arguably the Wrath B scenarios are miscalibrated. People have made a good case that it's more manageable to mix in the Deck 1 cards and complete Adventure 1 before assailing the B adventure. A tip: if you have 4 or fewer characters in your party, do not mix in the C deck. Another tip: Make sure you understand how Vinst works when playing B-2.

Wrath actually gets easier after B. The power of the characters increases faster than the difficulty of the scenarios. Still, too many Arboreal Blights and/or Demonic Hordes will always slow you down or stop you, and the Army henchmen can be nearly impossible to defeat with certain 5- and 6-character parties.
 
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