L Foster

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Wow! I came across this game by accident while surfing through some posts the other day. At first I didn't know what to make of it. The art was funky in a unique way. The character names and monster types were way outside the norm for other games I've played and seen. Oh, and the review scores here on BGG - can you say 'highly favorable'? All of it put together was very intriguing!
I was curious so I watched much of a playthrough on Youtube and was fascinated on how combat worked: the different stances for combat & how attacks/defenses were resolved with the dice. I also was happy to see how encounters and monsters were coded to different regions on the board.

When I went to the on-line store, there were support products to add variety and deepen the history of the world. There were books of histories and additional adventures. One character pack was not available, but according to a recent post, it's being reprinted. Excellent. As a long time Dungeon Master (30 + years) I love me some narrative background in games. Give me story and narrative! (Which will lead to my comments later on imagery.)

So, I am heavily thinking about picking up this game because of all these reasons.

BUT, as I briefly posted in another post, I have to ask myself: do I want to invest in a game that fundamentally mirrors the game patterns of another game I own?
I own Runebound, a move across the board and have adventures before fighting an end boss game. I've looked at Gloom of Kilforth but that seems to have a similar system but uses cards to randomize the map.
By the looks of it, Dungeon Degenerates appears to be in the same category, though combat and art have been done radically different - and that's a great thing.

So, to get to my first question: how similar is the base GAME to these other two games that I mentioned? Is it basically a variant on Roam the Board until you can defeat the Big Baddy? Will this replace Runebound or will it provide an alternative gaming experience?

Second Question: I love all variety in the cards. I am not going to fight the same monsters everywhere. There seems to be thought in providing a logical 'ecology' to your enemies.
Therefore, with fingers crossed for a good answer, I ask: How many cards are in each monster deck? About how many do you go through each game? Do the monsters become overly repetitive with multiple playthroughs? (Hence my curiosity about expansions.) What about the loot?

Now heavy breath...

(Edit - before reading my thoughts below, please note that Chris has responded to my concerns and I am greatful for his reply. I have toned down my subject here to remove what would be a misrepresentation of his game if I left it in. I don't want my search for answers to inadvertently place a negative vibe on his work. This is done by my own desire to be fair to the designer, not from any feeling of needing to self-censor.)

Finally, a subject already dealt with in previous posts: the apparent German-inspired . First of all, this is not a morality police posting - so please put that out of your head. This is about narrative logic.
My curiosity involves the rationale behind using a specific Earth-based iconology without narrative explanation. (If there is a narrative explanation, I'd like to hear it.)
(Answered by Chris later - my assumption here is wrong Essentially, a portion of the decor utilized by the game is lifted clearly from the German cultural 'database' of the early 20th century (including both historical and modified/adapted material).
This game is seemingly set in a very specifically placed 'elsewhere' (a fantastical land unattached to our own), so why are those specific style choices needed?
(I found references to the artist's use of these images in his own work, but the links associated with these now lead to removed/deleted pages.)

(Also answered by Chris below)
As I have no other known references to fall back on for answers, I ponder:
The focus in a few other posts hone in on this portion of the art, but does the game also reference other Earth based cultural touchstones, such as hippiedom, communism (scythes and red stars), the gun culture, capitalism, etc.?
If only the German iconology is used, then (to me) it's a chosen style done for 'shock and awe' or it's a personal style preference of the design team. Neither of these has narrative ties.
If other cultural imagery is integrated into the game, then the Nazi/German material is just a pie-piece of a larger picture, but if that 'pie-piece' is notably greater in proportion to all other references in the game, it reflects a preference by the design team.
If the sources are balanced, then the game itself becomes more of 'alternative' location fantasy that pulls symbolism from our real world to flesh out this new world with material familiar with the reader.

(Yet, as I play this out in my head, in at least one instance, the Nazi Swastika is so small, it's almost subliminal - so why use it at all?)

I said this was a 'neutral' commentary in the title. I am not trying to place a 'right' or 'wrong' label on this.
I am more interested in the design rationale to include this material within the game if it is the only 'Earth' references made.
It would seem that other symbols and costume designs could have been developed for the game that had no reference to our own culture.

With that said, I am still considering buying this game. I still love how the art looks; the naming of characters, monsters, and regions; combat rules; monster variability. It LOOKS unique. I just need to know if the PLAY is different enough.

As for the thoughts on imagery - I'm a teacher, and I'm always asking my students "Why?" "What led you to that choice?" "Justify your answer (and don't just say "Because" as that's a very lazy, non-thinking answer.)"
I'm also a DM, and in my world, I make sure I justify my design choices. If something is there just to be there, then I'm cheating my PCs of experiencing a fleshed out world - or I'm putting some of my personal preferences into the game to satisfy something in myself.

Thank you for reading my thoughts.
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Re: Similarities to Runequest and Gloom of Kilforth...? Card numbers? (+ neutral comment on imagery)
On the imagery front, my take is that it is from the Punk Metal underground usage. I would say it isnt just imagery that riffs off Germanic touchstone - Wurstreich - Bruttelberg etc - the whole setting is a twisted take on teutonic/Germanic tradition.

That's also to be fairly neutral too - I am an old school metal fan, so I am aware that Nazi imagery was used by bands who would repeatedly sing songs that were anti-Nazi Anti-authoritarian. From that perspective, it probably doesnt strike me as something done to shock, because ooit was being done to shock 30 plus years back, if that makes any sense?

You can get into arguments about the use of such imagery - (other than a not quite swastika is there anything else in there specifically Nazi rather than Germanic? It's an interesting debate - I'm against celebrating confederate Generals and the flag for example (as a Brit, I'm pretty distant from the heat of that debate). As a metal fan, I'm looking from the inside of this one and as someone whose Grandad fought Nazis, wouldnt place any sinsiter meaning on the usage - its part of the visual vocabulary I was brought up on and I suspect you could find in abundance in 70s and 80s counter culture (and gaming for that matter)
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Re: Similarities to Runequest and Gloom of Kilforth...? Card numbers? (+ neutral comment on imagery)
elem3ntary wrote:

BUT, as I briefly posted in another post, I have to ask myself: do I want to invest in a game that fundamentally mirrors the game patterns of another game I own?
I own Runebound, a move across the board and have adventures before fighting an end boss game. I've looked at Gloom of Kilforth but that seems to have a similar system but uses cards to randomize the map.
By the looks of it, Dungeon Degenerates appears to be in the same category, though combat and art have been done radically different - and that's a great thing.

So, to get to my first question: how similar is the base GAME to these other two games that I mentioned? Is it basically a variant on Roam the Board until you can defeat the Big Baddy? Will this replace Runebound or will it provide an alternative gaming experience?

Well I played Runebound first edition a few times (although I honestly don't remember if I bothered to finish any of the games...) and this game is very different. I would say they're both fantasy games with overl;and maps but that's where the similarity ends. I know they're doing a coop expansion for RB, but DD is a coop experience from the ground up. There are also 20 different missions, a campaign system (linking 2-6 games in a cohesive storyline with persistent characters & changes to the board), different endings, and at least one extra layer of depth on everything in DD (over RB). While there are 'big baddies' in DD, fighting a central villain is not necessarily the main focus of the story. I guarantee you will do things in this game you haven't seen before in any board game & there is quite a bit more narrative going on than your average fantasy hack & slash/loot dungeons game.

elem3ntary wrote:
Second Question: I love all variety in the cards. I am not going to fight the same monsters everywhere. There seems to be thought in providing a logical 'ecology' to your enemies.
Therefore, with fingers crossed for a good answer, I ask: How many cards are in each monster deck? About how many do you go through each game? Do the monsters become overly repetitive with multiple playthroughs? (Hence my curiosity about expansions.) What about the loot?

Quick answer: This game is more replayable than anything else in my collection, hands down

elem3ntary wrote:

Now heavy breath...

Finally, a subject already dealt with in previous posts: the Nazi Imagery. First of all, this is not a morality police posting - so please put that out of your head. This is about narrative logic.
My curiosity involves the rationale behind using a specific Earth-based iconology without narrative explanation. (If there is a narrative explanation, I'd like to hear it. - Did some SS officer fall through a portal and get adopted by militarist goblins who assimilated his uniform style?)
Essentially, a portion of the decor utilized by the game is lifted clearly from the German cultural 'database' of the early 20th century (including both historical and modified/adapted material). This game is seemingly set in a very specifically placed 'elsewhere' (a fantastical land unattached to our own), so why are those specific style choices needed?
(I found references to the artist's use of these images in his own work, but the links associated with these now lead to removed/deleted pages.)

As I have no other known references to fall back on for answers, I ponder:
The focus in a few other posts hone in on this portion of the art, but does the game also reference other Earth based cultural touchstones, such as hippiedom, communism (scythes and red stars), the gun culture, capitalism, etc.?
If only the German iconology is used, then (to me) it's a chosen style done for 'shock and awe' or it's a personal style preference of the design team. Neither of these has narrative ties.
If other cultural imagery is integrated into the game, then the Nazi/German material is just a pie-piece of a larger picture, but if that 'pie-piece' is notably greater in proportion to all other references in the game, it reflects a preference by the design team.
If the sources are balanced, then the game itself becomes more of 'alternative' location fantasy that pulls symbolism from our real world to flesh out this new world with material familiar with the reader.

(Yet, as I play this out in my head, in at least one instance, the Nazi Swastika is so small, it's almost subliminal - so why use it at all?)

I said this was a 'neutral' commentary in the title. I am not trying to place a 'right' or 'wrong' label on this.
I am more interested in the design rationale to include this material within the game if it is the only 'Earth' references made.
It would seem that other symbols and costume designs could have been developed for the game that had no reference to our own culture.

With that said, I am still considering buying this game. I still love how the art looks; the naming of characters, monsters, and regions; combat rules; monster variability. It LOOKS unique. I just need to know if the PLAY is different enough.

As for the thoughts on imagery - I'm a teacher, and I'm always asking my students "Why?" "What led you to that choice?" "Justify your answer (and don't just say "Because" as that's a very lazy, non-thinking answer.)"
I'm also a DM, and in my world, I make sure I justify my design choices. If something is there just to be there, then I'm cheating my PCs of experiencing a fleshed out world - or I'm putting some of my personal preferences into the game to satisfy something in myself.

Thank you for reading my thoughts.


Well first I don't think there actually are swastikas in this game. If there are I missed them. In any case there are actually a lot of reference to cultures from earth history (& modern day earth) in the game - including fascists &c. The iron cross, for example, is the symbol of the Holy Order (called 'Puritans' in the game, though they are not necessarily related to the puritans of earth), and is effective to give the immediate association with both catholocism & fascism (they are not 'good guys' in this setting). Much of the game setting is actually a satire of moden society (particularly american as that is where the creators are from). The german names hopefully conjure the mental image of a surreal alternate reality medieval germany, which is sort of the baseline starting point for our setting. If you were to imagine the Wurstreich as a fucked up nazi germany/20th century america/spanish inquisition/monty python hybrid on acid you would not be too far off.
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Eric Radey
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Re: Similarities to Runequest and Gloom of Kilforth...? Card numbers? (+ neutral comment on imagery)
also funny you should put 'Runequest' in the thread subject (I assume you meant to put Runebound). I grew up on Runequest & there are actually some obscure Runequest-influenced ideas hidden away in DD (by contrast there is zero inspiration from Runebound, other than how not to make the game ... or gloom of kilforth, which I've not seen yet!)
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L Foster

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Runebound...Runequest...Questbound...RuneRune...Descent?
Not to sound Gamist at all, but all FF games based in their world kinda sound and look alike.....
Fixed title, thank you Erik...

Also to Erik, I don't have anything directly to go on regarding the exact imagery on the game except the older posts that show (for one example) the Morbad Fighter poster with DD name over the top (and a couple others). I have to admit that the images I saw may not even be within the game itself in its present form. The glints in the eyes on the shield are where the Swastikas are seen.

The earlier post's discussion and the limited use of these images in the art tied to this game led me to think about the subject a bit. Hence, I really tried to keep a neutral tone to the content's possible controversial side and keep my points to the thematic appropriateness of the setting. It's quite possible that the imagery is not as prevalent as I initially believed.

I am truly very interested in this game and am leaning towards getting it. I just need to let the initial rush of 'WANTING' something new to fade a bit so I can be more rational with my decision. Still - it's so shiny...

I appreciate the answers and comments here. Thank you.
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Re: Similarities to Runequest and Gloom of Kilforth...? Card numbers? (+ neutral comment on imagery)
if you find FFG's fantasy offering a little bit err... vanilla, shall we say, Dungeon Degenerates is the polar opposite.
The question is - are we demonizing nazis or nazifying demons? and what came first, the chicken witch or the goblin egg?
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Sean Äaberg
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Re: Similarities to Runequest and Gloom of Kilforth...? Card numbers? (+ neutral comment on imagery)
Fast & easy answer to the art question - Lemmy Kilmister & Ralph Bakshi. Long answer - there isn't any Nazi imagery in the game - when I came up with the idea for Dungeon Degenerates in 2006 or something I was beginning my project that would turn into PORK magazine which was about dredging up all of the discarded cultural reference points of the counter-culture & putting them back into the package. Nazi imagery was a SMALL (but contentious) part of this - used in every American counter-culture since WWII - for a multitude of reasons - but I was specifically interested in the tradition of use & the power of these symbols & how when welded onto things like rebellious, free-spirited things like surfing, biking, skateboarding, Punk & the like they brought out this inherent contradiction & tension which is important & part of the cultural expression. So Dungeon Degenerates was part of that initial research & execution of completing the circle of lowbrow art with fantasy art & in particular - with RPG style art. There are lots of touchstones which I'll eventually go through & list - but essentially it's that "they're cool". But also - it's that if you go through the reference points of my art - there are common threads from Vaughn Bode to Robert Crumb to S. Clay Wilson to John Blanche to Hieronymous Bosch to Ian Miller to Pieter Brueghel to Ralph Bakshi & beyond. For me at this point - it's all historical & cultural & it's about respecting the entire cultural package & understanding how it is a whole thing & not just a corpse to exploit. In Dungeon Degenerates the game - we went with this dark, cartoony German medievalism because it gives the setting a familiarity that is also mildly exotic, mildly taboo & also distances the content - which is a sideways parody of the USA from the player's direct experience. Anything in the game that appears to have Nazi connotations like the leather stuff - is a funhouse mirror reflection of the world of sexual perversions - hence the sex dwarves, chains, dungeons & all that. I like triple entendres & circular jokes. The narrative in Dungeon Degenerates is about the relationship of power to non-power & hidden power - which is part of the reason why the game is difficult. The game reflects many things that we have lived through & personally done - although obviously through this fantastical mirror - but it's about starting at the bottom & finding your way - so these caricatures of power with Imperial & Holy entitlement are there & they are riddled with corruption & there are repressed pagan cults & the whole deal. If you want to extend it further - the game setting of the collapsing empire can be extrapolated to any collapsing empire - Rome, Germany, Russia or the USA. This is just German flavored fantasy for this particular game setting - partially because of my ancestry, my own interests & then again with the larger counter-cultural projects I've been working on. My obsession with pickles, barrels & sausages cannot be repressed. Since that initial work on Dungeon Degenerates & bringing Eric on to build the game - the thing has changed & evolved into what it is & since the completion of the game last year - it has continued to change & develop & open up into a much larger, more complex fantasy world of which only the surface has been scraped. We're working on lots of expansion material & the research is opening up enormous worlds - some of which are obscene caricatures of reality & others go completely into realms of fantasy untouched. So - the game will remind you of things - like there is a lot of HP Lovecraft in the game - & my vision of Medieval Germany was first informed by 80s Games Workshop products - but these are just reference points to what has become a unique gaming experience.
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Re: Similarities to Runequest and Gloom of Kilforth...? Card numbers? (+ neutral comment on imagery)
elem3ntary wrote:
So, to get to my first question: how similar is the base GAME to these other two games that I mentioned? Is it basically a variant on Roam the Board until you can defeat the Big Baddy? Will this replace Runebound or will it provide an alternative gaming experience?

It's not merely an "alternative gaming experience"—it's utterly unique. I'm a huge fan of the the "roll some dice, pull a card, have crap happen" family of games and own many of them; DD is in its own category. There's nothing like it, and there won't ever be anything else like it. What you have here is a deeply detailed, living world wedded to a damn fine game engine. I was initially drawn in by the unalloyed vision of the art—which of course made me instantaneously suspicious of the game itself (so many pretty morons stumbling out of Kickstarter these days) but upon reading the rules I was cautiously optimistic.

Then I played it.

And I'll never be the same again.

Quote:
Second Question: I love all variety in the cards. I am not going to fight the same monsters everywhere. There seems to be thought in providing a logical 'ecology' to your enemies. Therefore, with fingers crossed for a good answer, I ask: How many cards are in each monster deck? About how many do you go through each game? Do the monsters become overly repetitive with multiple playthroughs? (Hence my curiosity about expansions.) What about the loot?

Instead of counting cards, let me tell you how it plays: A party will typically run into more than one monster at a time—you're essentially running into a whole party of monsters! We love laying them out and coming up with the emergent narrative of why they're together and what they're up to. With a good shuffle you'll never see the same party twice, making every encounter feel unique (even if you've murdered that one guy before).

And in five plays we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the loot deck.

Bottom line: If the art speaks to you and you like this kind of game, GET IT. It's milk for the motherless.
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L Foster

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Sean,

A huge thank you for the time and thought of your response.

I am not overly familiar with your influences. I know the names, but not their direct art.
Having done a quick look at their art after reading your explanation, I can see where the 'look' of the game comes from. I will be altering my initial post to lessen the highlighting of the imagery and focusing more on the inspiration of your 'vision' for this game. I would not want to misrepresent the game as I apparently have unintentionally. I apologize for any anger or frustration my ignorance may have come from. (edit from comments below...Dammit....meant to say 'may have caused.' I need to get off this forum quickly before I mess up another sentence...)


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HiveGod wrote:
We love laying them out and coming up with the emergent narrative of why they're together and what they're up to.

this is the actual purpose & objective of the game design. you get it!

HiveGod wrote:
With a good shuffle you'll never see the same party twice, making every encounter feel unique (even if you've murdered that one guy before).
And in five plays we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the loot deck.


It's a valid concern that the game could be boring/repetitive, especially if you're using Talisman or something for comparison. TBH I laugh a little bit out loud whenever someone expresses this concern and think OH DONT YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT!
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elem3ntary wrote:
Sean,

A huge thank you for the time and thought of your response.

I am not overly familiar with your influences. I know the names, but not their direct art.
Having done a quick look at their art after reading your explanation, I can see where the 'look' of the game comes from. I will be altering my initial post to lessen the highlighting of the imagery and focusing more on the inspiration of your 'vision' for this game. I would not want to misrepresent the game as I apparently have unintentionally. I apologize for any anger or frustration my ignorance may have come from.



No worries from me - totally legitimate thing to ask about - you didn't come off angry either - were you angry?
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Sean Äaberg
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Yah - I didn't get an angry tone either - but it is the internet.
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L Foster

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Oops. Not my anger...Sean, your possible anger, stemming from my initial statements about my thoughts on the origins of the art-style. My 'posting emotion' was fully in the curiosity realm, not anger.

But I fat fingered when I meant to apologize for possibly upsetting you and made it seem that I was mad somehow. I'm not, but now? Hell, now I'm feeling embarrassed.

As you stated, this is the internet and we only read words here. It's hard to tell emotions at times. Tone, facial expressions, voice modulations - everything we use in face to face conversations is eliminated. Showing a severe lack of proofreading in your work will also lead to errors as well.

And again, I appreciate the dialog.
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After ~18 missions (that's... 50-60 hours of play?), I think I've seen all the monsters in the Lowlands & Wetlands decks, but I haven't seen all the encounter cards in any of the four decks, and there's a pile of other stuff I haven't seen. (I haven't seen all the Loot or Epic Loot, or all of the Epic Monsters, or most of the Triumphs or Weaknesses or Doom or Sign of Doom cards.) Also, I've only seen about a third of the missions in the book.

Regarding whether the missions are "Roam the Board until you can defeat the Big Baddy," definitely not. Here were my thoughts after two partial campaigns:

kuhrusty wrote:
The two campaigns have gone so differently that we might as well be playing two different games: in one, we beat down a Würstreich sin-finder, stole her thigh-high boots, and have been conspicuously wearing them while Rockette-kicking key influential individuals in the groin so that they'll be in the mood to attack the Würstreich when we light the signal fires on Witch Hill; in the other, we're about to embark on a mission to spread the... let's say word of our new... let's say Lord.

More blather in this thread.
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Just wanna trow my two cents in. After reading the first post about "nazi imagery" I didn't want to comment seeing the last entry was a year ago I thought the thread/subject as closed.

Since both Eric and Sean are committed and present designers with good answers (both here and on the comment section on the kickstarter site) I won't comment on the supposed nazi imagery.

What I wanted to write is what drew me in. The fact that if you own all 18 characters you own 9 male protagonists and 9 female. That's not happening in most fantasy games I've seen. Also of the 9 females all seams strong and independent and none is sexualized like many other fantasy games. Just look at Kingdom Death and the Conan game. And that's even when sex dwarfs and such is present.
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SkDG wrote:
What I wanted to write is what drew me in. The fact that if you own all 18 characters you own 9 male protagonists and 9 female. That's not happening in most fantasy games I've seen. Also of the 9 females all seams strong and independent and none is sexualized like many other fantasy games. Just look at Kingdom Death and the Conan game. And that's even when sex dwarfs and such is present.

That's a good point. My daughter (age 14) gets mad when rulebooks default to the player being male; I've appreciated being able to throw down a game with her where the Bloodsport Brawler is a woman.
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SkDG wrote:

What I wanted to write is what drew me in. The fact that if you own all 18 characters you own 9 male protagonists and 9 female. That's not happening in most fantasy games I've seen. Also of the 9 females all seams strong and independent and none is sexualized like many other fantasy games. Just look at Kingdom Death and the Conan game. And that's even when sex dwarfs and such is present.


man, some of the content in those games you mentioned makes me vomit in my mouth a little.
I wanted to point out that not only are there many female characters to pick from, there are also a plethora of body types represented amongst the characters. If you really want to run a 'check out my abs' character there is the Wastelander but everyone else dresses more sensibly - or at least in a manner befitting their character (is wearing a prosthetic nose 'sensible'?!).

oh, also the Banished Sorcerer's gender is somewhat mysterious goo

Someone on Reddit got upset about the whip-wielding bondage mohican on the cover of the game, because 'the only female character on the cover is scantily clad in bondage gear' ... simultaneously assuming that all monsters on the cover were male & failing to notice that most of them are either naked or also wearing bondage gear.whistle
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"man, some of the content in those games you mentioned makes me vomit in my mouth a little."

Sure is a understandable reaction to some of it. A big reason why I wouldn't buy them.

"oh, also the Banished Sorcerer's gender is somewhat mysterious goo"

Oh, I've just assumed it was a "he", shame on me ^^ Can you say anything about the distribution of the ten or something characters in play testing?

"Someone on Reddit got upset about the whip-wielding bondage mohican on the cover of the game, because 'the only female character on the cover is scantily clad in bondage gear' ... simultaneously assuming that all monsters on the cover were male & failing to notice that most of them are either naked or also wearing bondage gear.whistle[/q]"

Haha, I would at least count 5 of them as female ^^ Did anyone complain about the Mercenary Alchemist smoking yet?
 
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yes in fact one clever guy cancelled his Kickstarter pledge because the Mercenary Alchemist smoked some Witch Weed in a mission write-up. Possibly the least disturbing thing that can happen in the game .
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cultofmars wrote:
yes in fact one clever guy cancelled his Kickstarter pledge because the Mercenary Alchemist smoked some Witch Weed in a mission write-up.

Frankly, as a parent, I am concerned that the game fails to adequately condemn the risks of A) contagious skin infections, especially of the fungal variety, and B) opening portals to extra-dimensional realms.

Granted, in our games, the Void Ceremony encounter has been the #1 killer of adventurers, but my concern is that kids could see this game and think it's "cool" or "hip" to join an apocalyptic cult bent on summoning a Serpent Lord into our dimension. I trust future printings of the game will include a warning in the box (or perhaps a sticker on the cover?) with a cartoon character kids can identify with--maybe a wizard with sunglasses, a sideways hat, skinny jeans, that sort of thing--saying "Kids! Wizzy the Party Wizard says Winners Don't Summon Malevolent Entities Into Our Reality! Also if you have a rash you should go to the doctor; D6 Piercing damage + Poisoned is not a real thing in modern Western medicine. Unless you have cancer, which... well, you probably do, thanks to your parents raising you in a home surrounded by substances known to cause cancer. Say no to drugs. And non-consensual sado-masochistic sex acts. Or really any kind of non-consensual sex acts. And also murder, looting, pillaging, arson, and punching people in the face with a spiked gauntlet for sport. Stealing, impersonating a law enforcement officer, committing acts of terrorism in an effort to provoke a war, putting your lips on any part of a corpse... generally speaking, everything in this game is bad and is presented for entertainment purposes only; its appearance in this game should in no way be construed as reflecting the opinions or lifestyle choices of GOBLINKO, Inc., or the GOBLINKO, Inc. board of directors or shareholders. Wizzy the Party Wizard reminds you to adventure safely & responsibly. And, to the extent possible, non-adventurously."
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Grendel's Mother
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If the wanton drug use and Nazi symbolism dissuades certain people from playing, that should be just as acceptable a choice for them as it is for the creators of this game wanting to include such elements. These stylistic representations should make people uncomfortable, but does not equate to only being there for cheap shock value alone. As someone who watched and was made to feel uneasy by Ralph Bakshi's Wizards in my teenage years, I can appreciate that fine difference nowadays.

But there is no credibility to anyone debating the adequate representation of women here. It is done with such natural ease, and with nary a hint of condescending modern expectations of inclusion, purely for the flimsy display of fairness (which I find just as insulting as having no women, or only those who are scantily-clad eye candy).

Perhaps most importantly, it is crucial that we all remember that the Banished Sorcerer is a Reptilian, and has no discernible gender. Please repeat that after me.

kuhrusty wrote:
Frankly, as a parent (who named my daughter Hellhammer), I am concerned that...
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Sean Äaberg
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There's only one way to tell with a Reptilian. You have to say the magic word.

Far in the past before Atlantis existed, men there were who delved into darkness, using dark magic, calling up beings from the great deep below us. Forth came they into this cycle. Formless were they of another vibration, existing unseen by the children of earth-men. Only through blood could they have formed being. Only through man could they live in the world.

In ages past were they conquered by Masters, driven below to the place whence they came. But some there were who remained, hidden in spaces and planes unknown to man. Lived they in Atlantis as shadows, but at times they appeared among men. Aye, when the blood was offered, for they came they to dwell among men.

In the form of man they amongst us, but only to sight were they as are men. Serpent-headed when the glamour was lifted but appearing to man as men among men. Crept they into the Councils, taking forms that were like unto men. Slaying by their arts the chiefs of the kingdoms, taking their form and ruling o'er man. Only by magic could they be discovered. Only by sound could their faces be seen. Sought they from the Kingdom of shadows to destroy man and rule in his place.

But, know ye, the Masters were mighty in magic, able to lift the Veil from the face of the serpent, able to send him back to his place. Came they to man and taught him the secret, the WORD that only a man can pronounce. Swift then they lifted the Veil from the serpent and cast him forth from the place among men.

Yet, beware, the serpent still liveth in a place that is open at times to the world. Unseen they walk among thee in places where the rites have been said. Again as time passes onward shall they take the semblance of men.
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Tis true without lying, certain & most true.
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Daniel Davis
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What a great thread! Thoughtful discussion, respectful discourse.

You can tell this game appeals to a more "mature" audience, and I mean that in the best possible way.

It was the Punk-Metal art that instantly drew me to this game. I managed the book section at a Tower Records for years, and we were constantly on the lookout for cool underground shit. One of my best distributors was Last Gasp out of San Fran. I could totally see those guys being crazy for DD.
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