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Subject: 106.62 - AFV's concealment/hip search rss

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Scott B
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the normal rule is each unit may roll to search to reveal hip/concealed units at the end of it's movement (106.61).

An AFV without accompanying infantry on foot must deduct one from its search dice roll, two if not CE. (106.62)

Does that mean the AFV and accompanying infantry roll once, or each roll separately? I feel that once a unit modifies another, it gives up his ability; similar to a leadership modifier.

Similarly for AFV's passengers, they have not expended MF as passengers so would they be able to roll? Again, they usually do nothing (except dismount) while passengers.

any thoughts?


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T. Dauphin
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Ontario
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Although they talk about "the unit" rolling to reveal the hidden units, the opening line in 106.61 uses the term "any unit". The sense I get from this and the rest of this section is that they really want it to be "any and all units in each hex" get one die roll. So, whether one unit or three units, one die is rolled.

BTW, I think 106.62 is a silly addition. The accompanying infantry--without the AFV present--would have no such deduction), so as soon as there is an infantry unit present the die roll should be a normal one.

To me, what would make more sense (if you wanted to house rule it) would be to add one to the die roll for each additional infantry unit, but ignore any AFVs in the mix, a lone AFV getting the -2.

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Barry Ingram
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Hi guys.

I read it slightly differently.
My take is that each eligible unit rolls separately.

So 1 infantry unit on foot makes one roll.
A lone AFV likewise one roll with the appropriate -1 DRM (or -2 if non-CE)
An AFV with accompanying Infantry unit (on foot) would roll, without modifier, as well as the Infantry unit itself making its own roll. 2 rolls in total.

Whilst I question myself the necessity of 106.62's inclusion for AFVs, I believe it (tries) to capture the unnerving effect that such a vehicle would have on the enemy unit trying to remain undetected.

As 106.62 specifically mentions that the infantry unit needs to be on foot, I would further suggest any passengers carried on the AFV would not themselves warrant a separate roll.
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B Trap
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I believe that each unit gets a crack. So if there are 3 x units in the hex, then there can be 3 x attempts to reveal any bad guys. My thoughts:

1. If an AFV is alone in the hex, and attempts the 106.61 DR, then it is -1 to its roll in no accompanying on-foot infantry/cavalry OR -2 if non-CE with no accompanying infantry/cavalry in hex per 106.62.

2. If the same non-accompanied on foot AFV has CE passengers, then the AFV is still -1/-2 (106.62) for the AFV, but the CE pax get their own 106.61 DR as well, and I would say the 106.62 -1 for non-accompanying on-foot infantry/cavalry applies as well.

3. If the riding infantry is non-CE (non-exposed in a halftrack, for example), then they do not get a crack at 106.61.

4. If there is accompanying infantry/cavalry, they each get their own roll in addition to the AFV and its CE passengers. The presence of the AFV can certainly influence whether a hidden/concealed unit remains undiscovered..

My two cents, and honestly have never encountered this situation before!
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Scott Clinton
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IMHO:

I would say all units get a roll, individually. The presence of infantry also assists any vehicles that may be there searching.

The rule limits vehicles due to CE and due to their very nature as well.

If you are "searching" an area with a vehicle your search area will be limited to where it can travel which is much more restricted than where a pair of boots can travel.

Damn excellent question btw.


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Michael Power
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From the War Game Academy, Q&A 734 submitted by "ON All Fronts" (SL/ASL zine) this question may clear this up.

734 106.61
Q. Is the search MC to be done unit by unit as each finishes its movement or should all search MCs be done at the end of the MPh after all moves are completed?
A. Unit by unit as each finishes its move. {OAF}
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T. Dauphin
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I looked at that one, but I'm not sure it answers our question.

To me this is saying, as you move all your pieces, all over the board, you would resolve any desired searches as you finish each move, and as we move stacks of units at a time, it doesn't necessarily imply multiple checks in the same hex.

On the other hand, if you did have 2 or more units meeting in the same hex, then this Q&A would seem to be relevant.
Hmmm...

 
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Scott B
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thanks for all the comments.

I was trying to stretch 106.62 into what i wanted. It's not working out very well. So i will follow the literal rule.

 
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