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Subject: Lily, Skitter-Clak, & Rats rss

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Jay Jasper
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I'm finding Chap. 2 to be a real rules challenge. I've played it twice, then found the note about Maginos not using Meeps in a campaign until after Chap. 3, played again, then learned I was shuffling the initiative track when I didn't need to, so now, before I play this chapter again, I want to check the minion placement in the Crystal Tunnel.

Skitter-Clak basically greets the larger party as they enter the room, sitting on the minion space at the entry point. And the rats all descend on Lily? That is, if they end up higher on the initiative track than most of the party. cry And then all the rats can individually attack her?! While the large party deals w/Skitter-Clak?

As for adding to the initiative track when it's just Lily & a roach left, the party maintains its order & new minions get shuffled & added to the end? Boy, if I'd done it that way, the rats wouldn't have gotten the jump on things. I house-ruled that only 1 rat could attack per round, & it was still a very close thing.
 
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Rich Bouselli
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DonkeyJay wrote:
I'm finding Chap. 2 to be a real rules challenge. I've played it twice, then found the note about Maginos not using Meeps in a campaign until after Chap. 3, played again, then learned I was shuffling the initiative track when I didn't need to, so now, before I play this chapter again, I want to check the minion placement in the Crystal Tunnel.

Skitter-Clak basically greets the larger party as they enter the room, sitting on the minion space at the entry point. And the rats all descend on Lily? That is, if they end up higher on the initiative track than most of the party. cry And then all the rats can individually attack her?! While the large party deals w/Skitter-Clak?

As for adding to the initiative track when it's just Lily & a roach left, the party maintains its order & new minions get shuffled & added to the end? Boy, if I'd done it that way, the rats wouldn't have gotten the jump on things. I house-ruled that only 1 rat could attack per round, & it was still a very close thing.



Lily should only have roaches spawning on her tile per the chapter rules.
 
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Rich Bouselli
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DonkeyJay wrote:
I'm finding Chap. 2 to be a real rules challenge. I've played it twice, then found the note about Maginos not using Meeps in a campaign until after Chap. 3, played again, then learned I was shuffling the initiative track when I didn't need to, so now, before I play this chapter again, I want to check the minion placement in the Crystal Tunnel.

Skitter-Clak basically greets the larger party as they enter the room, sitting on the minion space at the entry point. And the rats all descend on Lily? That is, if they end up higher on the initiative track than most of the party. cry And then all the rats can individually attack her?! While the large party deals w/Skitter-Clak?

As for adding to the initiative track when it's just Lily & a roach left, the party maintains its order & new minions get shuffled & added to the end? Boy, if I'd done it that way, the rats wouldn't have gotten the jump on things. I house-ruled that only 1 rat could attack per round, & it was still a very close thing.



I also suggest you watch the watch it played video on YouTube with Rodney Smith. Once I watched it I was able to play the entire game with minimal issues.
 
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Jay Jasper
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TheRubexCube wrote:
DonkeyJay wrote:
I'm finding Chap. 2 to be a real rules challenge. I've played it twice, then found the note about Maginos not using Meeps in a campaign until after Chap. 3, played again, then learned I was shuffling the initiative track when I didn't need to, so now, before I play this chapter again, I want to check the minion placement in the Crystal Tunnel.

Skitter-Clak basically greets the larger party as they enter the room, sitting on the minion space at the entry point. And the rats all descend on Lily? That is, if they end up higher on the initiative track than most of the party. cry And then all the rats can individually attack her?! While the large party deals w/Skitter-Clak?

As for adding to the initiative track when it's just Lily & a roach left, the party maintains its order & new minions get shuffled & added to the end? Boy, if I'd done it that way, the rats wouldn't have gotten the jump on things. I house-ruled that only 1 rat could attack per round, & it was still a very close thing.



I also suggest you watch the watch it played video on YouTube with Rodney Smith. Once I watched it I was able to play the entire game with minimal issues.


When the party reaches the Crystal Tunnel tile, Skitter-Clak & 3 rats are placed. Skitter-Clak, being a boss minion, is placed on the minion space closest to the entering party.

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Rich Bouselli
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DonkeyJay wrote:
TheRubexCube wrote:
DonkeyJay wrote:
I'm finding Chap. 2 to be a real rules challenge. I've played it twice, then found the note about Maginos not using Meeps in a campaign until after Chap. 3, played again, then learned I was shuffling the initiative track when I didn't need to, so now, before I play this chapter again, I want to check the minion placement in the Crystal Tunnel.

Skitter-Clak basically greets the larger party as they enter the room, sitting on the minion space at the entry point. And the rats all descend on Lily? That is, if they end up higher on the initiative track than most of the party. cry And then all the rats can individually attack her?! While the large party deals w/Skitter-Clak?

As for adding to the initiative track when it's just Lily & a roach left, the party maintains its order & new minions get shuffled & added to the end? Boy, if I'd done it that way, the rats wouldn't have gotten the jump on things. I house-ruled that only 1 rat could attack per round, & it was still a very close thing.



I also suggest you watch the watch it played video on YouTube with Rodney Smith. Once I watched it I was able to play the entire game with minimal issues.


When the party reaches the Crystal Tunnel tile, Skitter-Clak & 3 rats are placed. Skitter-Clak, being a boss minion, is placed on the minion space closest to the entering party.




Oh yea lol. It’s been awhile since I played that one. Skitter-Clak wouldn’t spawn at the entrance. Being that your party would be there and you can’t have him share a space with your party. So he would spawn at the top or bottom of the tile and the rats would spawn on the other one.
 
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Jay Jasper
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I consider the grey space as the entrance as well as exit to the tile, & there are minion footprints on the first space. So, according to the rules regarding boss minion placement...



My question isn't so much where to place Skitter-Clak in any case, it's about all 3 rats attacking Lily. Can minions gang up on a PC that way?
 
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Rich Bouselli
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DonkeyJay wrote:
I consider the grey space as the entrance as well as exit to the tile, & there are minion footprints on the first space. So, according to the rules regarding boss minion placement...



My question isn't so much where to place Skitter-Clak in any case, it's about all 3 rats attacking Lily. Can minions gang up on a PC that way?



The gray spot is not a space. It’s used to correctly align the tiles. The white means underground, orange is above ground. That is all the colors are. They are not spaces. That first space is where your party would start. So skitter wouldn’t spawn in the first space. I promise you this is correct. The footprints on the “first space” would only have an impact in a different scenario that your party didn’t start on that tile.

And yes they can all attack her on one turn as long as she is closest to them. But if you spawn the minions properly then you should be able to move into the tile and keep them away from her.

And as long as there is still a minion on the board anywhere then you don’t reshuffle the initiative track. You were correct in placing on the very bottom at that point as well.
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Jay Jasper
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Well, that certainly makes life easier! laugh Because I'll tell you what, being greeted by Skitter-Clak while rats thump on Lily was a depressing scenario. Tho', w/a little house rule (only 1 rat per round could attack), I did win.

If Lily melees, it's only for 1 (stab them w/an arrow, whack them w/your bow), correct? And 2 for a ranged because of the bow.
 
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Rich Bouselli
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DonkeyJay wrote:
Well, that certainly makes life easier! laugh Because I'll tell you what, being greeted by Skitter-Clak while rats thump on Lily was a depressing scenario. Tho', w/a little house rule (only 1 rat per round could attack), I did win.

If Lily melees, it's only for 1 (stab them w/an arrow, whack them w/your bow), correct? And 2 for a ranged because of the bow.



Lily does not melee at all. She only attacks with ranged, she has to roll bows to get hits. A hero’s attack type is determined by the weapon they have equipped. And they cannot attack with no weapon. So if she has a bow, she can only attack with ranged. She can use the bow to attack adjacent and in her same space.

There are some weapons that are ranged (maginos’ staff) that can attack with melee as well. But the card will specify if you can do that or not.
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Jay Jasper
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TheRubexCube wrote:
DonkeyJay wrote:
Well, that certainly makes life easier! laugh Because I'll tell you what, being greeted by Skitter-Clak while rats thump on Lily was a depressing scenario. Tho', w/a little house rule (only 1 rat per round could attack), I did win.

If Lily melees, it's only for 1 (stab them w/an arrow, whack them w/your bow), correct? And 2 for a ranged because of the bow.



Lily does not melee at all. She only attacks with ranged, she has to roll bows to get hits. A hero’s attack type is determined by the weapon they have equipped. And they cannot attack with no weapon. So if she has a bow, she can only attack with ranged. She can use the bow to attack adjacent and in her same space.

There are some weapons that are ranged (maginos’ staff) that can attack with melee as well. But the card will specify if you can do that or not.


That's what I was afraid of. I played her ranged, but was hoping I'd overlooked something. Because she seriously had an eating disorder, just rolling cheese & not hitting a thing by the time the party reached her. I guess that makes her a stress eater?
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Rich Bouselli
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DonkeyJay wrote:
TheRubexCube wrote:
DonkeyJay wrote:
Well, that certainly makes life easier! laugh Because I'll tell you what, being greeted by Skitter-Clak while rats thump on Lily was a depressing scenario. Tho', w/a little house rule (only 1 rat per round could attack), I did win.

If Lily melees, it's only for 1 (stab them w/an arrow, whack them w/your bow), correct? And 2 for a ranged because of the bow.



Lily does not melee at all. She only attacks with ranged, she has to roll bows to get hits. A hero’s attack type is determined by the weapon they have equipped. And they cannot attack with no weapon. So if she has a bow, she can only attack with ranged. She can use the bow to attack adjacent and in her same space.

There are some weapons that are ranged (maginos’ staff) that can attack with melee as well. But the card will specify if you can do that or not.


That's what I was afraid of. I played her ranged, but was hoping I'd overlooked something. Because she seriously had an eating disorder, just rolling cheese & not hitting a thing by the time the party reached her. I guess that makes her a stress eater?


Lmao. It would seem so. Early on she’s tough to hit with. But if you get her enchanted bow or accurate bow she’s a killing machine. Plus when she’s not trapped and can actually move around she’s really good. I use her to kite enemies around and attack from a distance.

In this scenario just try to have your party get to her and protect her once you get in there. You should be fine. Feel free to ask me anything else. This is one of my top 5 games and I’m always happy to talk about it and assist others.
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Jay Jasper
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TheRubexCube wrote:


Lmao. It would seem so. Early on she’s tough to hit with. But if you get her enchanted bow or accurate bow she’s a killing machine.


I should hope so, because right now I'm like, "Girl, maybe you should take up baking."
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Ray Greenley
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Be sure to give Lily the ability that lets her add a die to her attack by spending a cheese. Going from 2 to 3 dice on ranged attacks makes a big difference.
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Rich Bouselli
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DonkeyJay wrote:
TheRubexCube wrote:


Lmao. It would seem so. Early on she’s tough to hit with. But if you get her enchanted bow or accurate bow she’s a killing machine.


I should hope so, because right now I'm like, "Girl, maybe you should take up baking."


Lmao. I felt the same way early on. Just try to find one of those bows for her and you’ll see how awesome she can be.

Enjoy the ride!
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Rich Bouselli
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RMGreen wrote:
Be sure to give Lily the ability that lets her add a die to her attack by spending a cheese. Going from 2 to 3 dice on ranged attacks makes a big difference.


That too. And the ability that allows you to roll double the attack dice is beast!
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Cameron Brett
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DonkeyJay wrote:
TheRubexCube wrote:


Lmao. It would seem so. Early on she’s tough to hit with. But if you get her enchanted bow or accurate bow she’s a killing machine.


I should hope so, because right now I'm like, "Girl, maybe you should take up baking."


Also consider Pre-emptive Shot as her starting ability. It gives her a good chance at taking out each roach as it appears, in addition to the shot on her turn!
(PES triggers when minions are added to the board, which will be outside of Lily's turn usually.)
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Erwin Weiss
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TheRubexCube wrote:

In this scenario just try to have your party get to her and protect her once you get in there. You should be fine. Feel free to ask me anything else. This is one of my top 5 games and I’m always happy to talk about it and assist others.


Thank you for all your valuable input. I’ve read along quite often and this helped me out a lot. So it’s very appreciated. The rules confuse a lot of people. While the basics are quite simple, the problem with the rules lie in the details for me. Too many things (exceptions) you have to remember at the right time.
The rule book scatters similar information at different spots in the rule book. Example: picking up a team item before you leave a tile requires an action. But it’s not mentioned as part of the actions.

To overcome this I made two player aids in my own language, Dutch. Why? Because to me, none of the available ones in English, had a good mix of overview and detailed information. So I made one aid for the Game Master, including rules for set up. And a smaller one for each player, with all the actions a mouse can do, with the enemy turn on the back.

Here’s my question: with all the player aids that are already out there and considering the age of this game, would another English player aid add anything of value?
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CrazyMani2 wrote:
TheRubexCube wrote:

In this scenario just try to have your party get to her and protect her once you get in there. You should be fine. Feel free to ask me anything else. This is one of my top 5 games and I’m always happy to talk about it and assist others.


Thank you for all your valuable input. I’ve read along quite often and this helped me out a lot. So it’s very appreciated. The rules confuse a lot of people. While the basics are quite simple, the problem with the rules lie in the details for me. Too many things (exceptions) you have to remember at the right time.
The rule book scatters similar information at different spots in the rule book. Example: picking up a team item before you leave a tile requires an action. But it’s not mentioned as part of the actions.

To overcome this I made two player aids in my own language, Dutch. Why? Because to me, none of the available ones in English, had a good mix of overview and detailed information. So I made one aid for the Game Master, including rules for set up. And a smaller one for each player, with all the actions a mouse can do, with the enemy turn on the back.

Here’s my question: with all the player aids that are already out there and considering the age of this game, would another English player aid add anything of value?


I really didn’t have an issue with certain little things like that. The fishhook and thread, for instance, explains on the card that you should read a certain page to get the explanation. And even though I’ve forgotten to go and pick it back up, that had nothing to do with the rules but with me simply forgetting it was there.

But most of the time you won’t need it again anyway so it’s not too critical. And you can’t carry it over to the next chapter either.


So I honestly wouldn’t know if another player aid would help. If you feel you need it, it certainly couldn’t hurt.
 
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Erwin Weiss
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Thanks for your feedback!

I do feel the need for a player aid that streamlines the rules and incorporates FAQ and forum feedback. That’s why I made it for myself and posted it to share. It’s taken me many days spread across months to make though, because of all the additions I find online, which are hard to translate in something comprehensive and concise.

Last time I play tested with the use of my aid, I was passing an accessory along to every mouse that I found on the first tile, and I thought: wait, this can’t be correct, this doesn’t feel right. So I went online, and found you’re restricted to exchanging items from your backpack only. But that’s not what the rules say.
In a sense I just want to enjoy the adventure. But playing the game and thus the outcome (making it to the end of the chapter) is quite often effected by these unclear game aspects. It’s probably because I want to be honest and not feel like I made it because I circumvented a rule, that I struggle with this aspect of fuzziness and openness.

And since I struggle with this, there might be more people like me. But translating the player aids back to English, which is not my native language, will be a huge effort. Since you are actively part of this community, I thought you might have an idea, how actively people still play this game.
What I will do: After I have finished painting the miniatures and have a couple of 4-player chapters under my belt I will reconsider it.

Note: I love the game and what the creator of this game has tried to accomplish. In no way I’m trying to bring the game down. It’s because I love the game, that I find it unfortunate that after an afternoon of preparing a game session, my head hurts of all the exceptions I find, when I try to streamline the gameplay for myself. A game like Great Western Trail also has lots of rule details and moving parts. But I get how it works after one play. I guess there’s some logic to it that goes well with me. The rules of M&M are a bit more story driven, thematic, like the game itself. But I will keep on going. It’s worth it.
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CrazyMani2 wrote:
Last time I play tested with the use of my aid, I was passing an accessory along to every mouse that I found on the first tile, and I thought: wait, this can’t be correct, this doesn’t feel right. So I went online, and found you’re restricted to exchanging items from your backpack only. But that’s not what the rules say.

I applaud your efforts to smooth over the rough parts of the rule book; it's notoriously patchy!

Just wanted to mention, in regard to what you have said about sharing items between mice: there is no restriction about sharing from backpack only. The rules (in English at least) state "When performing a share action, a mouse can freely exchange search cards and/or cheese tokens with another mouse that is on the same space or an adjacent space." (p.15) The big restriction with sharing is that you can only equip or unequip an item once each turn. So you can use a magic bow and then pass it to another mouse, but you can't pass the bow, use it and then pass it back in the same turn.
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Erwin Weiss
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DubbleMeeple wrote:
CrazyMani2 wrote:
Last time I play tested with the use of my aid, I was passing an accessory along to every mouse that I found on the first tile, and I thought: wait, this can’t be correct, this doesn’t feel right. So I went online, and found you’re restricted to exchanging items from your backpack only. But that’s not what the rules say.

I applaud your efforts to smooth over the rough parts of the rule book; it's notoriously patchy!

Just wanted to mention, in regard to what you have said about sharing items between mice: there is no restriction about sharing from backpack only. The rules (in English at least) state "When performing a share action, a mouse can freely exchange search cards and/or cheese tokens with another mouse that is on the same space or an adjacent space." (p.15) The big restriction with sharing is that you can only equip or unequip an item once each turn. So you can use a magic bow and then pass it to another mouse, but you can't pass the bow, use it and then pass it back in the same turn.


Got it. It's the one time limit of the equip/unequip action that makes this work correctly. Thanks a lot, your response is really helpful.

To make matters a bit more complex, there's the reply from the designer in **This_Thread** that says:

nobeerblues wrote:
When you share, choose one other mouse that is on the same space or adjacent, you can exchange as much cheese as you want, plus as many non-equipped items you wish to exchange with that mouse..


It says non-equipped. I thought this solved the endless passing-on problem. But now I see that this is an extra limit on what you are allowed to share... whistle

(Note: The dot-dot-dot is no way a reference to the Mamma Mia! movie that I just watched two times in a row with my daughter of 10 this weekend. Although I automatically started whistling an Abba song when using the whistle icon laugh)

I guess one could ignore this limitation because it doesn't solve any problem the original poster started the thread with and it isn't in the official rules. Theme-wise I say, it's in the spirit of the game to pass on a sword you have in your hand and a bunch of other stuff/cheese from your backpack.
To set this limation or not, does impact how much 'planning ahead' the team has to do, so the amount of communication is needed. (Because an item should be always unequipped by the previous mouse to enable sharing) And communication is something I like to see in a cooperative game. On the other hand, this doesn't happen often probably, since the most-likely candidate for a(n) (newfound) item is often quite obvious.

[Edit after I wanted to implement this in the player aid:] Wait! But a mouse could do this: Receive an Accessory from another mouse - Equip it - Use it in its turn. And then the next mouse could: Receive the Accessory from the previous mouse - Equip it - Use it in his/her turn. Etc. Of course, they have to be standing close to each other all the time. Am I still missing something or is this the reason for the usefulness of 'back-pack items only'?
 
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