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Subject: Stacking and unit rotation. rss

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walter vejdo
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Let say the russian has one unit in the great redoubt (stacking limit 1)
A french unit enters the zones and attack.
The russian unit is reduced by french artillery and combat.
Now the russian can play.

Is it correct to say that there is no way for the russian player to put another unit in this hex while taking out the initial defending unit without losing control of the zone?

Because of stacking the new unit cannot enter before the former leaves and change of control happens immediatly. For other type of zone, rotation of units is possible but not for the most important hexes.
Thanks

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Mark Kwasny
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I do not have the rules in front of me, but I believe you only HAVE to resolve combat when an area starts your turn unengaged and you then create an engagement. Since the Redoubt would start your turn engaged already, I think you can pull the weakened unit out and send in another without initiating a required combat.
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Emanuele Santandrea
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Thank you Mark!

and Happy New Year to you all!

emanuele
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waltervejdo wrote:


Is it correct to say that there is no way for the russian player to put another unit in this hex while taking out the initial defending unit without losing control of the zone?



According to rules - yes, you should exchange your area control for allowance to swap your forces. Areas change their control "instant", where the movement "is not simultaneous".
Here are the rules:

Controlled Area

The player that was the last sole occupant (or started with control of the Area if there has been no occupant) controls that Area and is the Area owner.
Enemy-controlled Areas are converted to friendly-control at the instant they are occupied solely by friendly Unit(s).

Contested Area

A contested Area is one in which both sides have Units. The player that was the last sole occupant controls each contested Area, and keeps his Units in the Area concealed, while the other player keeps his Units in the Area revealed. Units do not need to stop in an Area in order to
covert control.

Unit movement is not simultaneous. Units must be moved one by one, and before starting to move a Unit, the player must have completed moving the previous Unit. So, if a Unit wants to move into a fully Stacked Area, one Unit must first be moved out from of a such an Area, before another Unit enters the Area.
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Kev.
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Berngard wrote:
waltervejdo wrote:


Is it correct to say that there is no way for the russian player to put another unit in this hex while taking out the initial defending unit without losing control of the zone?



According to rules - yes, you should exchange your area control for allowance to swap your forces. Areas change their control "instant", where the movement "is not simultaneous".
Here are the rules:

Controlled Area

The player that was the last sole occupant (or started with control of the Area if there has been no occupant) controls that Area and is the Area owner.
Enemy-controlled Areas are converted to friendly-control at the instant they are occupied solely by friendly Unit(s).

Contested Area

A contested Area is one in which both sides have Units. The player that was the last sole occupant controls each contested Area, and keeps his Units in the Area concealed, while the other player keeps his Units in the Area revealed. Units do not need to stop in an Area in order to
covert control.

Unit movement is not simultaneous. Units must be moved one by one, and before starting to move a Unit, the player must have completed moving the previous Unit. So, if a Unit wants to move into a fully Stacked Area, one Unit must first be moved out from of a such an Area, before another Unit enters the Area.

Thats not how it works.
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Emanuele Santandrea
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Kevin is right as well.

I do not have the rules manual in front of me now, so I can not find the precise point, but you can swap units in and out during your turn, without losing control of the Area.

emanuele
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Mark Sterner
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ULTIMO wrote:
Kevin is right as well.

I do not have the rules manual in front of me now, so I can not find the precise point, but you can swap units in and out during your turn, without losing control of the Area.

emanuele


Please provide the rules citation when you have access to them. This seems like it would be an important point to establish.
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Emanuele Santandrea
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I was mixing things up.

Area control has been correctly described by "Nevermind," as reported in "Controlled Area" on page 4.

Combat is mandatory only when an Area was not contested at the beginning of the Impulse (FAQ #4, page 24).

Thus, in this specific case, as the Great Redoubt (max stacking =1) is Russian controlled and contested at the beginning of the Russian Impulse, a Mandatory Combat is not required, even if the Russian swaps a unit (in this way however losing the control of the Great Redoubt).

Hope this clarifies the doubt.

Thanks for checking, sometimes I have too many games in mind, and few rules manual at handy.

ALL THE BEST


emanuele

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Mark Sterner
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hipshot wrote:
or...you could could look


or... you could read Emanuele's reply and learn why I asked him for a citation here.
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walter vejdo
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Thanks Emanuele

So to summarize in my example: no need to attack for the new russian unit but control is lost to the french.

The case of losing control while swapping units in red zones might be added to the Q&A. It was not clear for all it seems.

It has important tactital implications in the game.
The attacker can swap at will because he is not afraid of losing control but the defender has to live with his original unit or will lose control while swapping.
This makes even more (together with the artillery impact on attack only) a game of counter attack rather than fixed defense.
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Emanuele Santandrea
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Thank to you Walter, and to Mark, John and the Others.

This is something which was in the rules, but I needed to find it.

Now I want to play Bloody Monday.

ciao belli

emanuele
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Kev.
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ULTIMO wrote:
Thank to you Walter, and to Mark, John and the Others.

This is something which was in the rules, but I needed to find it.

Now I want to play Bloody Monday.

ciao belli

emanuele

So your response above now says that you DO indeed LOSE control of the Area when reinforcing via a swap? Is that correct yes or no?
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Emanuele Santandrea
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Yes.

Let me add a couple of comments if you all do not mind.

The first one is a tactic tip. In the above mentioned situation, as the Russian, I have never abandoned the Great Redoubt. Losing it opens the center of the Russian front to the enemy, and you know how much Napoleon liked the central strategy. The game has been designed accordingly, and hope you can pardon me if I cannot recall each rule by memory.

Back to the Great Redoubt, this the most important Area of the game.

In case of a French attack, I can portray two scenarios: the French seize the Grand Redoubt, usually because it was defended by the setup artillery, or they engage it, but cannot get rid of the Russian Grenadier previously deployed there. This situation must be carefully prepared by the Russians, avoiding to lose more than one of the surrounding Areas (which in that case could serve as staging Areas for deploying many French artillery to support the attack).

In both cases, unless I risk to lose the game (10 units eliminated or Kutuzov in a risky position) I will immediately launch a ferocious counterattack, supporting it with all the artillery I have previously deployed behind, sure that - being the Area owner - the French cannot claim for the Defensive Bonus, and that the lonely French unit will be disintegrated by the Artillery fire before he could roll a single die.

Second, this tactic is in line with the Russian tactics of the era, and I doubt that Barclay de Tolly would have given the Great Redoubt easily, or would not have launched his best troops to reseize it. Nor Bagration...

emanuele
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Curiouser and curiouser!

So, in two almost identical situations there are different sequences. For instance, you can simply swap your single unit in the contested area with forest or field, but you should lose control in areas, specially dedicated for defence) It sounds like the some abstract rule, like "fire at will" banning for artillery, but has it any historical base? Can the attackers take control faster in the areas with field defence equipment, then the forest or clear field?

As for me, when I've played with my opponent, we've swapped forces in th red areas without losing the control, like in the other areas, until I've read this thread) With this "control rule", Russians have started to always lose now due to lack of mobility and force power to regain that "key" points.
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Emanuele Santandrea
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Berngard,

I will never concede the Great Redoubt to the French, and if they put their feet in, I will repulse them with everything I have previously prepared in each surrounding Area.
I believe that this image well represents the terrible fightings lasted for hours:




Despite it was a extremely tiny triangle of terrain, it was so heavily fortified, and hardly to access, that losing the GR equals to lose the center, and the game, and no Russian general would have allowed (or would have been allowed) to abandon it.
In fact - with the Fleches - it was teathre of the most ferocious attacks and counteattacks of that bloody Monday.

emanuele
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Jim O'Neill (Established 1949)
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My 28mm division had a hard time getting into it too. A wargame played over a weekend with Barry Hilton who designed the Napoleonic miniature rules Republic to Empire.

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ULTIMO wrote:

and no Russian general would have allowed (or would have been allowed) to abandon it.
In fact - with the Fleches - it was teathre of the most ferocious attacks and counteattacks of that bloody Monday.

emanuele

Emanuele,
Thanks for reply and the game you designed! I'm absolutely agree with you that the GR and Fleshes are the most important points in Russian defence.
But look at the picture above. The Great Redoubt in fact is the lunette with some fence behind it. The Fleshes are simlpy open from behind to make easier their recapturing (the proof link, for example, http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Borodino_battle.htm). So, I can't see any historical or practical evidence to explain why the swapping single unit in forest zone allows me to maintain the control of this zone, while the similar action at the red zones (flashes and redoubt) does not. Why not to check the control of the red zones after fights'resolving, not after movement phase?
If you'll look in the proof link, you can also see that historically there was more then one division on the GR at the moment (Yermolov's counterattack, for example). And artillery was firing at will with great result (for example, stopping first Davout's attack on fleshes). And actually by 4:30 PM the French infantry was in control of the Redoubt, and General Likhachev was captured.
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Emanuele Santandrea
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Hello Berngard,

thanks for the link, I love the website and the book.

Regarding our interestin talking, we should consider that the those Attacks took place for the Great Redoubt, but involved several surrounding areas.

The space we have used for the GR, and even for each one of the three Fleches, was too small (only around 50-130 meters the Fleches; 170 meters long, by 45 meters wide the Great Redoubt) for allowing deploying and, even simultaenous movement, of large formations.



To this, we need to add that the slope, the ditch, the double palisade, the artillery fire smoke, the artillery pieces as well, with their supply wagons, the rough terrain, the number of corps (of man and horses) laying of the attlefields, and the intrinsec fortification system (trenches, palisade and wolf pits), made impossible to move larger formations between those specific Areas.

"The approaches, the ditches and the redoubt itself had disappeared
under a mound of dead and dying, of an average depth of 6 to 8
men, heaped one upon the other."
- officer Heinrich von Brandt, Vistula Legion



The same considerations are valid for those "top of the hills" - such as the Kurgan - which are Red Areas as well (very small), while Yellow Areas (forested) cover larger space, and also thanks to the cover granted by the trees and the forest, deployment and movement of troops was easier (thus possible swap troops without losing control).

emanuele

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Emanuele,
Sorry for delayed reply, too much work this days.

ULTIMO wrote:
The space we have used for the GR, and even for each one of the three Fleches, was too small (only around 50-130 meters the Fleches; 170 meters long, by 45 meters wide the Great Redoubt) for allowing deploying and, even simultaenous movement, of large formations.

To this, we need to add that the slope, the ditch, the double palisade, the artillery fire smoke, the artillery pieces as well, with their supply wagons, the rough terrain, the number of corps (of man and horses) laying of the attlefields, and the intrinsec fortification system (trenches, palisade and wolf pits), made impossible to move larger formations between those specific Areas.



I agree with your argumentation in some abstract way. But, as you can see in the source, Yermolov and Lowenstern were able to use more then 6 Regiments and some battalions to counterattack the Battery. The wolfpits and trenches were from the French side, according to source. And the support infantry and some additional artillery were placed on the "flank" and "rear" slopes of the hill (sorry, can't find any proof in english sources). In addition, N.E. Mitarevski wrote about elimination of the some battery by the distant artillery fire when they were changed whith another battery, but I also can't find this quote in english. Some interesting thinks about artillery tactics I've found here http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/artillery_tactics.htm#_art...

Please take in account, that the artillery or yager block in your game is depicting much less formation (Regiment, I think) then the line infantry block (Division?). And reduced block depicts less number of soldiers.

How about to allow swapping without lose of control, when the artillery, yager, or more then half reduced block is swapping with "full" block? What do you think about?

And what do you think about allowing artillery to "fire at will"? Can this change the balance of game?
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Emanuele Santandrea
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These are all interesting points Berngard.

Modifications probably would need some playtesting, because - as you have correctly said - this modifications could alter the game balance.

You and me know that history is a matter of passion and study, we have been carrying over since our childhood, and these kind of arguments are really the "what if" sits we enjoy to talk about.

Back to Bloody Monday, sure some aspects could have been handled in a different way, however the overall idea was keeping the game as linear and as simple as possible, considering such an important battle like Borodino was.

Despite being such a faithful tragedy, after over 200 years there are still scholars like you, me and many Others allowing those facts to not be forgotten, and internet and BGG make today possible something which would have been unbelievable just some years ago, and allows us to have some nice chat, after hard working days.

ALL THE BEST

emanuele
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ULTIMO wrote:
Back to Bloody Monday, sure some aspects could have been handled in a different way, however the overall idea was keeping the game as linear and as simple as possible, considering such an important battle like Borodino was.

That's why your game is very interesting for me, Emanuele) Simple rules and gameplay, but still "very close". And I talk you about some "rough edges" (maybe only in my point of view) because I'm not indifferent for the game.
Two of them are already mentioned in this thread: lost of control while swapping forces on the red zones and "fire on will" prohibiton for artillery. I will be very grateful, if you'll find any time in future to make playtests for them.
Please don't think that I have only some criticism for the rules. For example, I think now that there is a good abstraction with historical base to not allow the artillery to enter the contested area. Playing this game I've found many answers and encountered many questions to find out in the sources, and this is actually quite breathtaking)
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