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Subject: How to win using fame?! rss

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Susan
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Somebody please share the secret on how to create a fame engine that doesn't get crushed by the peeps creating market engine.

I can't even come close to winning if I focus on fame.

Thoughts?!
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There is nothing in this game that continuously generates fame points. Nothing you invest in to generate fame can be reutilised to generate fame again in subsequent turns.

As far as I'm concerned, this game has no fame point engine. I'd be interested in hearing your definition of fame point engine in the context of this particular game.
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Susan
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Pedrator wrote:
There is nothing in this game that continuously generates fame points. Nothing you invest in to generate fame can be reutilised to generate fame again in subsequent turns.

As far as I'm concerned, this game has no fame point engine. I'd be interested in hearing your definition of fame point engine in the context of this particular game.


Well maybe there isn't one, I'm just hoping someone has figured out to be competitive with fame. I think there needs to be additional fame bonuses around the track to compensate for how strong the market strategy is.
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Matt L.
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Having not played at all, but very interested in this game, is there an issue here or just hoping for a variant strategy?
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isellsunshine wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
There is nothing in this game that continuously generates fame points. Nothing you invest in to generate fame can be reutilised to generate fame again in subsequent turns.

As far as I'm concerned, this game has no fame point engine. I'd be interested in hearing your definition of fame point engine in the context of this particular game.


Well maybe there isn't one, I'm just hoping someone has figured out to be competitive with fame. I think there needs to be additional fame bonuses around the track to compensate for how strong the market strategy is.


This statement is really strange. To me there is no fame engine in this game. So why do you want to be able to do something that the game is not designed to facilitate? You need s lot of money because taking actions costs money and you need your money marker to meet your fame marker somewhere along the track, besides, you also want the bonuses so you'll naturally tend towards generating as much money as you can in the early game. Specially because buildings only become really valuable in later rounds.

Just out of curiosity, I finished a game about two hours ago. I won and I mamaged to move my fame marker farther than anyone else. It also moved farther than my money marker that made only one corner whilst my fame marker made it past two corners of the track. Is this what you mean?

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LunaWolvesMan wrote:
Having not played at all, but very interested in this game, is there an issue here or just hoping for a variant strategy?


Only played it a handful of times, so not willing to comment yet. I think having new players each game enables those who have played it before to jump out in front with their strategy so it seems OP but on equal footing they wouldn't have pick of the market tiles and action spaces.
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isellsunshine wrote:
LunaWolvesMan wrote:
Having not played at all, but very interested in this game, is there an issue here or just hoping for a variant strategy?


Only played it a handful of times, so not willing to comment yet. I think having new players each game enables those who have played it before to jump out in front with their strategy so it seems OP but on equal footing they wouldn't have pick of the market tiles and action spaces.


I see, that makes sense, I'll be curious to hear how you feel it holds up over time.
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Pedrator wrote:
isellsunshine wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
There is nothing in this game that continuously generates fame points. Nothing you invest in to generate fame can be reutilised to generate fame again in subsequent turns.

As far as I'm concerned, this game has no fame point engine. I'd be interested in hearing your definition of fame point engine in the context of this particular game.


Well maybe there isn't one, I'm just hoping someone has figured out to be competitive with fame. I think there needs to be additional fame bonuses around the track to compensate for how strong the market strategy is.


This statement is really strange. To me there is no fame engine in this game. So why do you want to be able to do something that the game is not designed to facilitate? You need s lot of money because taking actions costs money and you need your money marker to meet your fame marker somewhere along the track, besides, you also want the bonuses so you'll naturally tend towards generating as much money as you can in the early game. Specially because buildings only become really valuable in later rounds.

Just out of curiosity, I finished a game about two hours ago. I won and I mamaged to move my fame marker farther than anyone else. It also moved farther than my money marker that made only one corner whilst my fame marker made it past two corners of the track. Is this what you mean?



None of this is accurate. I won my last game without going to the market a single time. Since they cross, you can have them cross anywhere, including with under $10 (where mine did). And only 2 actions cost money, maybe, and not a lot at that.

Also there is a way to make them better; the upgrades that increase their points. If you are going for fame: 1. the action spot 4 is critical. he upgrades early, and gives you money so you dont need to worry about market. 2. directly below the start of your board, is an upgrade. all you have to place is 2 tiles. 3. focus on the river and the spots that get you upgrades, or let you choose an action and do action 4. Plus you'll likely need that worker since you wont be doing money.


Fame is significantly easier than going mono-type goods in my opinion.
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posterchild21 wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
isellsunshine wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
There is nothing in this game that continuously generates fame points. Nothing you invest in to generate fame can be reutilised to generate fame again in subsequent turns.

As far as I'm concerned, this game has no fame point engine. I'd be interested in hearing your definition of fame point engine in the context of this particular game.


Well maybe there isn't one, I'm just hoping someone has figured out to be competitive with fame. I think there needs to be additional fame bonuses around the track to compensate for how strong the market strategy is.


This statement is really strange. To me there is no fame engine in this game. So why do you want to be able to do something that the game is not designed to facilitate? You need s lot of money because taking actions costs money and you need your money marker to meet your fame marker somewhere along the track, besides, you also want the bonuses so you'll naturally tend towards generating as much money as you can in the early game. Specially because buildings only become really valuable in later rounds.

Just out of curiosity, I finished a game about two hours ago. I won and I mamaged to move my fame marker farther than anyone else. It also moved farther than my money marker that made only one corner whilst my fame marker made it past two corners of the track. Is this what you mean?



None of this is accurate. I won my last game without going to the market a single time. Since they cross, you can have them cross anywhere, including with under $10 (where mine did). And only 2 actions cost money, maybe, and not a lot at that.

Also there is a way to make them better; the upgrades that increase their points. If you are going for fame: 1. the action spot 4 is critical. he upgrades early, and gives you money so you dont need to worry about market. 2. directly below the start of your board, is an upgrade. all you have to place is 2 tiles. 3. focus on the river and the spots that get you upgrades, or let you choose an action and do action 4. Plus you'll likely need that worker since you wont be doing money.


Fame is significantly easier than going mono-type goods in my opinion.


Thank you! This is exactly what I was hoping for!
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Pedro Pereira
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posterchild21 wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
isellsunshine wrote:
Pedrator wrote:
There is nothing in this game that continuously generates fame points. Nothing you invest in to generate fame can be reutilised to generate fame again in subsequent turns.

As far as I'm concerned, this game has no fame point engine. I'd be interested in hearing your definition of fame point engine in the context of this particular game.


Well maybe there isn't one, I'm just hoping someone has figured out to be competitive with fame. I think there needs to be additional fame bonuses around the track to compensate for how strong the market strategy is.


This statement is really strange. To me there is no fame engine in this game. So why do you want to be able to do something that the game is not designed to facilitate? You need s lot of money because taking actions costs money and you need your money marker to meet your fame marker somewhere along the track, besides, you also want the bonuses so you'll naturally tend towards generating as much money as you can in the early game. Specially because buildings only become really valuable in later rounds.

Just out of curiosity, I finished a game about two hours ago. I won and I mamaged to move my fame marker farther than anyone else. It also moved farther than my money marker that made only one corner whilst my fame marker made it past two corners of the track. Is this what you mean?



None of this is accurate. I won my last game without going to the market a single time. Since they cross, you can have them cross anywhere, including with under $10 (where mine did). And only 2 actions cost money, maybe, and not a lot at that.

Also there is a way to make them better; the upgrades that increase their points. If you are going for fame: 1. the action spot 4 is critical. he upgrades early, and gives you money so you dont need to worry about market. 2. directly below the start of your board, is an upgrade. all you have to place is 2 tiles. 3. focus on the river and the spots that get you upgrades, or let you choose an action and do action 4. Plus you'll likely need that worker since you wont be doing money.


Fame is significantly easier than going mono-type goods in my opinion.


What exactly do you find inaccurate? Are you saying you mamaged to move your fame marker all the way till the end of the track?

I'm not saying the market is necessary, Im saying money is necessary. There are many ways of obtaining money.

I'm interested in what you say I'm being inaccurate about and specially interested in how far you went with your money marker.

Also interested in knowing how many rounds approximately you played and how other players responded to your startegy.

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I would agree that building a "fame engine" is stronger than a money engine. 1 fame is worth 2 money. So a good market pull will net you 8 money where a poor fame gain is 4, with 4 fame and 8 money being equivalent.

I only play Navaratnas, so bear that in mind.

1) Acquire and connect the white Upgrade yield asap.
2) Use the 4 action whenever you can afford it, preferably with a river action for free.
3) Buy as many two-building tiles as you can, preferably for 8 fame each. Second priority is 4 fame building + Market, to disrupt others and utilize the Market strategy as well.
4) Use the 5 action to build over cheaper tiles when necessary.

This fame engine becomes almost broken when you add in the Mango Village promos. Grab the upgrade one and activate it as often as you can, and you're rolling in fame.
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Very interesting thread.
Our game group has been a little disappointed with the fame vs money thing. Market tiles can continue to generate so three good market tiles could be a sufficient engine. Fame is a one off and costly in comparison. We've tried two house rules. First the market tile only generates money when the market is triggered and not when first collected and secondly and more interesting the fame track is communal with one marker and players can decide to add the fame or subtract it.
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I'm really interested in how long your games take in average. Our game yesterday took about 5 rounds which I think is too short for anyone to make their buildings sufficiently valuable to win by neglecting financial income.

Coupled with the the chance that the building you invested most in making valuable early game isn't always available to you, I find it quite unlikely that you were able to win by only focusing on fame and win if a game took no longer than 5 rounds.

I've seen a lot of people saying that this game takes longer than what is on the box, whereas in our case it doesn't. Yesterday's game took just under one hour. 4 players, one of which was new but performed well.

Another very important factor: I have, so far, only played the basic variant of the game. So an of the above statements derive from playing the advanced variant? If I'm correct, advanced has all players start with 6 workers? In that case I can see how pushing fame can be viable seeing that players got a lot more actions per round per game.
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Ralf Arnemann
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Corn merchant wrote:
Market tiles can continue to generate so three good market tiles could be a sufficient engine.

Not really. Normally there is only one mixed-market field available which might generate 4-6 money depending on how lucky you were with your building actions.
The next mixed-market field is seldom available, as someone has to use the tea-markets-only field before.

Quote:
We've tried two house rules.

I am generally reluctant with house rules, especially with games where designer and publisher are known for extensive game-testing.
And I am not convinced the market tiles should be weakened even more.

We normally care for markets and money production to quickly get the additional worker - there will be some more Money coming as Windfall Profit of some Actions (especially building bonuses). But the main advance will be done by the fame marker, which with some preparation can cover lengthes of track with some building Actions.

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Ralf Arnemann wrote:
Corn merchant wrote:
Market tiles can continue to generate so three good market tiles could be a sufficient engine.

Not really. Normally there is only one mixed-market field available which might generate 4-6 money depending on how lucky you were with your building actions.
The next mixed-market field is seldom available, as someone has to use the tea-markets-only field before.

Quote:
We've tried two house rules.

I am generally reluctant with house rules, especially with games where designer and publisher are known for extensive game-testing.
And I am not convinced the market tiles should be weakened even more.

We normally care for markets and money production to quickly get the additional worker - there will be some more Money coming as Windfall Profit of some Actions (especially building bonuses). But the main advance will be done by the fame marker, which with some preparation can cover lengthes of track with some building Actions.


I strongly agree with your comments on the houseruling.

If this thread has shown anything it's that different players play differently, some favour markets and think it's over powered, some favour fame and think it's overpowered. To me the game is just about seizing opportunities and this can result in me going down a stronger money route or a stronger fame route. I think the game is well balanced and both markers can reach far. There are so many factors that can contribute to this and a lot of them are related to available tiles at any given moment. Number of rounds played is another factor that is important. If players drag on because they want to achieve something that is achievable only in a few rounds, then they enable other players to perform a lot better with a particular strategy that might make others seem less powerful (when really it is the time factor that does).

So we had the OP asking how fame can compete with money (as it her experience it seemed impossible) then we had another user state that fame is a lot stronger than market.

This only means that both work. It's all about circumstantial opportunity and how well players can seize those.

I had one game where one player came second yet he had pushed his money marker all the way to 118. Had claimed no fame though so was 1 away from winning (potentially). Most our victories are based on an early money push for extra worker and some bonuses on the money track, and a mid-game shift to fame which then is really quick to trigger end-game.

In yesterdays game, I got my 4th worker in round one, and my 5th worker in round two. From then on, I pushed the game end to be triggered as fast as possible to keep the edge in the number (aka time factor) of actions I was able to perform.

In general I find this thread somewhat futile. Some users will defend the fame track, some the money track. Find your strategy and use it as often as it takes for an opponent to come up with a counter strategy that challenges your own, then you will be forced to rethink and come up with a more creative way to win the game. There is no such thing as money or fame being overpowered, they complete each other.

At least that's my opinion. I am yet to be beaten by anyone who focuses only on Market, or on Fame. Although some almost did...
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The two paths to victory (money and fame) are very different and this goes beyond 2 money = 1 fame.

First of all, they don't give the same bonuses. With +52 money, you get all the bonuses: 1 extra worker, 2 steps on the Ganges and 4 extra dice. OTOH, you need +31 fame to get: 1 extra worker, 1 step on the Ganges, 2 Karmas and 1 upgrade. So, with fame, it requires more effort to get less bonuses in total (and you also get them later).

In contrast, there are fewer spots to activate the markets (5) compared to building spots (8). To be complete, you can also activate the markets if you are high enough on the Ganges and you can also build using the master builder.

In theory, fame by building is better since a single build action could give you up to 8 fame. However you would need the right tile to be available and the right dice in hand so this is costly and hazardous. OTOH, with 3 different value 3 markets, a single activation requiring only 1 worker (no dice) can give you 9 money. Less in terms of progress towards victory but far easier to achieve.

I find building upgrades hard to get since this is done mainly via Raja Man Singh chamber (4). It would require a lot of time to get all the 4 buildings at the maximum and be independent of the tile availability randomness. And even with all this effort, you only get 4 fame per building instead of 2. In contrast, it is easier to get enough different markets so that any market activation spot gives you a reasonable amount of money.

All in all, I find the market strategy easier and less dependent on dice rolls and tile availability.
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Ralf Arnemann
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lcg74160 wrote:
In contrast, there are fewer spots to activate the markets (5) compared to building spots (8).

Just to make sure: You are aware that market spots have to be taken in order?
Which often means: If nobody has an attractive combo of tea markets, than spice and silk as well as the second mixed spot will not be usable.

Quote:
It would require a lot of time to get all the 4 buildings at the maximum

Certainly. Having one building to 4 and one or two more to 3 would be quite good (and feasible). And yes, that makes you a bit vulnerable to tile drawing.
But one fame point more or less for a certain building doesn't make the big difference, building many buildings makes it.

Quote:
All in all, I find the market strategy easier and less dependent on dice rolls and tile availability.

It's easier, it's less dependent on dice rolls, but tile avalability (especially in the beginning) is crucial to get the right Combo of high value markets. And fame works directly by building and scoring, while with markets you have to build and the activate.
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Ralf Arnemann wrote:
lcg74160 wrote:
In contrast, there are fewer spots to activate the markets (5) compared to building spots (8).

Just to make sure: You are aware that market spots have to be taken in order?
Which often means: If nobody has an attractive combo of tea markets, than spice and silk as well as the second mixed spot will not be usable.



The rules say you can take market spaces in any order. Only the quarry and the harbor must be taken in order.
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Ralf Arnemann
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ericamick2 wrote:
The rules say you can take market spaces in any order. Only the quarry and the harbor must be taken in order.

Thanks a lot!
We confused this that quarry and market have to be taken in order and the harbour not.

This definitely changes something.
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Pedrator wrote:

In yesterdays game, I got my 4th worker in round one, and my 5th worker in round two. From then on, I pushed the game end to be triggered as fast as possible to keep the edge in the number (aka time factor) of actions I was able to perform.


I agree with you, that there is no fame engine.
An engine would only be based on the resources firmly provided each round after a build-up. That means only pure meeple actions can constitute an engine and that engine can still be blocked in a given round by the opponents.

We have an ineffective engine for one dice/one meeple regarding dice management, a two-coin+reroll dice 'engine' (fixed, no build-up) and the mixed market as the one and only real engine providing resources required for winning. That is its special charm and therefore it might sometimes look like the one and only way to go.

However, that one can and will be blocked and the game is more a game of tactical opportunities like you said. Especially for the important dice management, while not directly contributing to the win, you need a better approach than 'one dice/one meeple', which is the emergency case, if you depleted this resource near to zero hopefully for a 'big' tactical gain. And better approaches can happen due to the different special boni. But these are each a unique opportunity, they are not reset each round like the mixed market engine. Even the palace dancer is not reset (you effectively gain a dice (and more)) for you, because you are not guaranteed to get a 'two' again (besides the possibility of being blocked).

While I see no fame engine, there is certainly a strategical decision of upgrading the effectivity of tactical fame acquisition as well as the strategic question of the road map.

Back to the quote: Could you outline, how you got 4th and especially 5th worker? While I can imagine 4th in 1st round (which won't be easy and you enjoyed already favorable conditions), I do think, you got a very special and rare position to get 5th in 2nd (probably money and river). I don't think that feat is a valid starting point/reference for the strategic advise 'pushed the game end to be triggered as fast as possible'. Depleted resources must be regained, that needs a brief respite.

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eaglewing wrote:
Pedrator wrote:

In yesterdays game, I got my 4th worker in round one, and my 5th worker in round two. From then on, I pushed the game end to be triggered as fast as possible to keep the edge in the number (aka time factor) of actions I was able to perform.


Back to the quote: Could you outline, how you got 4th and especially 5th worker? While I can imagine 4th in 1st round (which won't be easy and you enjoyed already favorable conditions), I do think, you got a very special and rare position to get 5th in 2nd (probably money and river). I don't think that feat is a valid starting point/reference for the strategic advise 'pushed the game end to be triggered as fast as possible'. Depleted resources must be regained, that needs a brief respite.



I'd have to revise the map to see the river but you are right, river had to with the achievement. I remember my first tile, purchased in round one, was a two market (2 coins each) tile that I connected to the 3 coin yield.

I used the diversity market once also. so that was a total of 11 coins gained on that alone. The river spot number 3 gains 4 coins for a total of 15. I started with 6 or 7 money. I ended up on exactly spot 20 and was able to take another action that turn which prepared me to move up on the fame track. I can't recall the details on obtaining the 5th worker but I specifically updated one particular building to 4 fame that I systematically went for. When purchasing tiles in the second and third rounds I was less worried about connecting to yields than scoring the one building that was available to me. It was not luck that I had several options because I specifically raised the building that was represented the most in round one.

You are right that this was an exceptional case and I would never make it my strategy of choice to replicate this one opening move. But this is exactly what I meant further above, this is a game of opportunities. Before placing my first worker I had a good look at the board and figured out a really good move I would be able to pull off because of specific tiles that were available that round and because of the money I was able to generate that one round. Again in the second round I did the same exercise: rather than focusing on continuing what had worked well in round one, I looked at the board and thought about what particularly good move would I be able to pull off this round.

I never thought about "pursuing a heavy money strategy" or "pursuing a heavy fame strategy". I like to think about how I can do certain things faster than other players if they don't see the opportunity.

I even pushed my ship further than 2 of the other players and was close to the one that pushed it furthest. Because at a particular time in the game it actually made sense to give me a slight advantage over the other players. I like mashing things together as efficiently as I can.
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Matthias Adler
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Pedrator wrote:
this is a game of opportunities.

I certainly agree.

Still, strategic decisions have to be taken, you cannot do everything.
- Which buildings to upgrade
- Do you push for an efficient one of a kind market
- Do you push far on the river and which of those 'big gain' river squares behind the bridge do you go for
- How to set up the roads, which side to go first, because you will reach the big edge boni on the left or the right side, but not necessarily both
- How to handle karma ;-)
- A developement of an at least useful mixture market should have a high priority. You want a gain, if you do block, even on a no dice deplete action

Concerning your feat:
First action you needed a dice generating action. The dancer would have upped you to five dice total and the special gain. The one most powerful is the building upgrade.
Second action was an opportunity, two opponents used the harbor and occupied 2 dice and two karma. I don't have the game lo look up the 2x2 markets, but it will cost you 2 dice of one color (necessity of 1st action), down to three dice total, gaining you the 11 coins you described including the 4-coin-money spot on the river.
Third action diversity market gaining the money towards 4th meeple.

At this point with one more action round one, four actions round two, three dice and an upgrade I can see 5th meeple by using the river, 15 squares to go could be by doubling the Portuguese-palace action, due to a six and due to a question mark on the river. Then 3 more squares with the harbor.

However, from your description I understand you did it by getting 15 fame. Maybe 1st fame buy a double building providing directly 5 fame for another upgrade. Or with favorable road connections you could have included the 3 fame at the edge at the right hand side. Or 3 fame at the river are added in. With the resources listed above indeed an exceptional case.
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My experience from my 2 plays is that you´re supposed to do both money and fame. If you focus too heavily on one or the other the players doing both will end the game before you have a chance to close your gap. I can imagine that in some groups the pacing is slower, making the game feel different. So maybe the counter to heavy money players is to do money and fame, and rush them.
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David Stahle
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Interesting discussion in the thread, I believe that the most efficient play most times include a combination of fame/money generation. Though it would give an advantage by having a focus.

Both the market strategy and the building fame strategy offers about the same yield in points per action spent when you include the investment in setup (counting 1 die as about equal to 1 worker action).

The market strategy, once setup, is easier to use as it does not require a specific die value or color but is at the same time easier for opponents to disrupt.

The fame strategy on the other hand is more dependent on specific die colors and values along with a favorable building tile offering. But is harder to disrupt and gives you additional bonuses from your player board.
 
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James Geist
United States
Overland Park
KS
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Just wanted to add another data point. First time 3 player game tonight, playing the advanced version. Myself and my wife went Fame heavy to start, while player 3 loaded up on markets. He had a commanding lead on money about the halfway point (maybe 40-25-15) but little Fame. We both had our Fame above the 2 Karma spot and then started cranking out money. We both had 3 unequal markets and often hit that space before he could, making him use Dice to run his markets.

In the end, my wife and I intersected markers on the same turn and I edged her out by one space. We all scored our initial draw brown tiles for significant points. I had the 1 fame per 3 River spots and got 7 Fame out of that on my final turn, which gave me a river space, which put me on a 3 market space for 8 dollars. Big turn!

I thought early with my friend's market heavy strategy that we may be in trouble, but his slow moving Fame really hurt him in the end.

Terrific game that I already want to play again.

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